My existential crisis about SPD

[Doc Democracy]

OK.  I had it gently pointed out to me by @unclevlad that the pricing of REC on END Reserves was for pricing reasons - using turns rather than phases meant that the price was the same across every character rather than having to deal with the vagaries of different SPDs between characters.

 

It occurs to me that SPD is one of the things I police most strongly in my games - higher SPDs are devastating in the right hands - my friend realised that when he allowed me to have a SPD 12 martial artists in an early game with our group.  Even though he was dishing out very small amounts of damage, the fact it was autofire and AP along with the ability to move recover and attack almost before others had moved was hugely advantageous.  I was able to move, recover, and still be in there doing damage.

 

Do we price SPD too cheaply? Or should the price of SPD be about its value relative to the campaign SPD? 

 

So.  if as the GM, I say I expect characters of SPD 5, normals will be SPD 1 and agents SPD 2.  Should characters coming in at SPD 4 get a discount and those at SPD 6 pay more?

 

SPD acts as a multiplier and thus REC, doing damage and moving all get better as SPD increases beyond the average.  Is an arithmetic 10 points per point able to account for that?

 

Are we doing SPD all wrong???

 

Doc

 

PS: my biggest problem with widely divergent SPDs is that the player with the high SPD character gets too much "screentime" as opposed to the other players.  This is even worse when it is someone who is poorly organised or overly concerned with making the absolutely right move.

Edited August 13 by Doc Democracy

[Ninja-Bear]

Why is it when someone finds an exploitive combo people on the board automatically have to adjust pricing? Doc in 6th Ed, that SpD 12 is 100 pts. I haven’t played a game that allows 100 Act pt power. Plus the old advice given in 4th Ed is that players should be within 3 pts of SPD.  that also helps reign in SPD. Pricing is fine.

[Sketchpad]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Why is it when someone finds an exploitive combo people on the board automatically have to adjust pricing? Doc in 6th Ed, that SpD 12 is 100 pts. I haven’t played a game that allows 100 Act pt power. Plus the old advice given in 4th Ed is that players should be within 3 pts of SPD.  that also helps reign in SPD. Pricing is fine.

 

I agree with Ninja-Bear. In addition, a GM should be keeping an eye on SPD in any Hero game. The fact that a GM allowed a SPD 12 is pretty awe inspiring. I usually keep them within 2 ranks of each other (a SPD 3 campaign can have a SPD 5 max for the right reason). I tend to avoid SPD past 5 in most cases unless the player can give me a compelling reason.

[Maccabe]

The thing about 12 speed is that the PC having it is using up a lot of END a turn. Not to mention USES or Charges  Now if they have a high REC and reduced END cost on their powers then you have a problem.  I reserve SPD higher then 5 to speedsters.  Also this applies to autofire as well, since it grants more attacks a phase.   You can always rule that SPD costs more if you really must allow high SPD non-speedsters.

[unclevlad]

Another consideration is that very, very high SPD is usually an END drain...but martial arts can really tone that down.  Martial arts DCs *and* autofire *and* AP?  I agree with N-B, too.  It may not have been the SPD 12.  Were those attacks actually properly evaluated for being too effective?  Autofire's a bear in that regard.  And AP autofire should probably be a major yellow flag all its own...ESPECIALLY with martial arts, where the autofire itself doesn't create a massive END hit.  Those martial arts DCs are a nasty bypass of the rule that reduced END on autofire is more expensive than normal.

 

12 minutes ago, Maccabe said:

Now if they have a high REC and reduced END cost on their powers then you have a problem. 

 

It's still hard to do, and rather expensive.  How did the character drop 100 on SPD, another 20 on REC, however much on reduced END, the OCV to get the multiple hits with the AF, and movement?  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Speed is quite expensive, you want 12 speed, you're spending 100 points.  That's a 20d6 blast.

[LoneWolf]

I also have to agree with Ninja_Bear.  The way to fix it is not to change the price but to put reasonable limits on the campaign.  Hero System is an incredibly flexible system that can simulate nearly anything.  But if you don’t put some limits on characters things can get out of hand very easily.  Part of the problem is that the early editions of the game set the SPD on characters too high.  That has been carried over in every edition and every flavor of the Hero System.

 

The campaigns I play in we limit SPD for all characters.  Most PC’s and significant NPCs are 4 SPD, A speedster is usually a 6 SPD.  Normals are 2 SPD, slow characters and combat trained agents are usually 3 SPD.  1 SPD is someone that is below normal like an old man or someone with disability or injury.  When we use published material, we reduce the SPD.  In most cases we lower the SPD by 1.  If someone new comes into the group, we warn them of this and suggest the lower their characters SPD.  If they insist on keeping the higher SPD, we let them know that all other characters will have their SPDs increased. Doing this has really improved the game.  First of all it really speeds up combat, second it reduces the headache of END usage and REC.  
 

[Gauntlet]

Lowering the speed also makes combats move faster and easier as well. Many times that overly crazy speed character has to think for a while every time their phase comes up, which is almost every phase. Slower speed characters have more time to figure out what they want to do. Plus it allows you to have that overwhelmingly crazy speedster enemy as the characters don't make that 12 speed bad guy look slow.

[Steve]

If there is a stated cap on Active Points (like 70 Active Points), then maybe the SPD cap should be 9? That would cost 70 points.

 

Is having a 9 SPD equivalent to being able to throw 14 Damage Classes?

[Grailknight]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Speed is quite expensive, you want 12 speed, you're spending 100 points.  That's a 20d6 blast.

 

It's actually 24 DC's. We count the free 10 STR so we should count the free 2 SPD just the same.

 

49 minutes ago, Steve said:

If there is a stated cap on Active Points (like 70 Active Points), then maybe the SPD cap should be 9? That would cost 70 points.

 

Is having a 9 SPD equivalent to being able to throw 14 Damage Classes?

 

Why wouldn't it be SPD 7 was the maximum and exceeding that would require GM permission just like any other Power over campaign limits? If you're going to have active points limits, then enforce them across the board.

 

SPD becomes an END issue at 6 or above. But it gives so much flexibility that you'll spend the points to compensate unless you want that to be the character's weakness. 

. 

Almost any Characteristic taken to the campaign active limit can be problematical. STR is accounted for but still puts you on campaign maximum. DEX or INT makes you a skills god. PRE gives skills and a devastating attack option. Even the weakest characteristics, CON, BODY and EGO, will make you overly tough against something, and END will let you abuse Pushing. 

 

In the end, there is no substitute for consistency in campaign guidelines and careful GM vetting.

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

If there is a stated cap on Active Points (like 70 Active Points), then maybe the SPD cap should be 9? That would cost 70 points.

 

Is having a 9 SPD equivalent to being able to throw 14 Damage Classes?

 

I would say that 9 SPD is a lot more valuable then 14 Damage Classes!

[Grailknight]

2 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I would say that 9 SPD is a lot more valuable then 14 Damage Classes!

 

In general, the SPD is better as it should be because it's worth 18 DC's. In practice, the high SPD character may be restricted to a lower DC attack and may not be able to do as much effective damage.

[Gauntlet]

28 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

In general, the SPD is better as it should be because it's worth 18 DC's. In practice, the high SPD character may be restricted to a lower DC attack and may not be able to do as much effective damage.

 

Not necessarily, yes it does mean that the higher speed cost more points but that does not mean that those points are being taken away from attack DCs. It easily could be coming from defenses, or enhanced perceptions, or skills, or even movement. I just have found that characters with much higher speeds then their attackers have an incredible advantage as they can better select what they want to do with things like always dodging when the opponent attacks, or always being in the perfect position, or always being able to react if their opponent makes a mistake.

[Ninja-Bear]

To be fair to Doc they didn’t think how exploitive that combo was. I don’t think I’d have the experience to see that it could be too powerful. We’ve had experience with the GM stating “I didn’t think it was THAT powerful!”

[LoneWolf]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I would say that 9 SPD is a lot more valuable then 14 Damage Classes!

 

Like anything it is a matter of balance.  A character that has a 12 SPD but cannot do damage or affect anyone in a meaningful way is still useless. 

 

 I wrote up a character for a really strange campaign where the idea was to create ridicules characters called General Nuisance.  General Nuisance had a 12 SP and really high defense but absolutely no attacks.   His STR was only 15 with no martial arts and no weapons.  He could get a 3d6 normal attack.   This was in 4th edition so he had a good DEX, which meant a good OCV and usually went first.   For the most part he did not have a problem hitting, but most of the time his attacks bounced completely unless he was attacking a normal walking down the street.   
 

[Gauntlet]

9 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

 

Like anything it is a matter of balance.  A character that has a 12 SPD but cannot do damage or affect anyone in a meaningful way is still useless. 

 

 I wrote up a character for a really strange campaign where the idea was to create ridicules characters called General Nuisance.  General Nuisance had a 12 SP and really high defense but absolutely no attacks.   His STR was only 15 with no martial arts and no weapons.  He could get a 3d6 normal attack.   This was in 4th edition so he had a good DEX, which meant a good OCV and usually went first.   For the most part he did not have a problem hitting, but most of the time his attacks bounced completely unless he was attacking a normal walking down the street.   
 

 

Ahhhh Yes, The STUPID Campaign.

Super

Twirps

Undertaking

Personally 

Injurious 

Duties

 

May not sound like it but that was a great game to both run and play in. I am actually in the process of writing a campaign type book for it.

[Gauntlet]

I will have to say one thing about Speed: while I do not think it is overpriced, I do believe that it is the characteristic that the GM needs to be keeping the most eye on as it can easily be abused.

 

A second thing to remember about Speed is that you do not have to go on the phases listed for your SPD Characteristic. Remember that saving phase always an option as long as you have a SPD Characteristic below 7 (and even when it is above 7 except you will have some phases where you cannot save to the next segment). This means that you can trip up a character that has a higher speed, and if you are a group of characters attacking a high-speed character by saving your phases you can make sure that they do not get free phases (or at least not many of them).

Edited August 13 by Gauntlet

[Doc Democracy]

Thanks @Ninja-Bear for noticing that this was on our early exploration of the system.  I reckon Swift was a character made under 3rd edition rules in the mid 80s and built on the 100 points plus disads.  I think he came out at 254 points.

 

It was indeed an exercise in balance and judgement, I thought he was more fragile than he was and he was far more effective toe to toe with the team brick than he should have been.

 

I was also learning them about putting characteristics in the same bucket as powers as far as point caps go.  I think at that point we had rough guides to damage dice and defences.  Mostly we relied on the system being balanced (yes @Duke Bushido, I know! 😁). In 3rd, the SPD cost was heavily swallowed up by high DEX.

 

I note however that we DO do a lot of management of SPD in ways we probably don't for other things.

 

I think the "problem" is that it is right in there with other characteristics when it is more fundamental than that.

 

If I was playing with HERO players, my next game might have a campaign SPD and allow folk to buy up from that or draw points from buying it down. I might also consider SPD, in this game to have a geometric cost. (In reality, most of my group tell me what they want and allow me to build it 😞)

 

As it happens, the way I assess characters is very much about the average damage output and ability to apply that over an average turn.  So I do take SPD into consideration there. I tend not to impose damage caps or AP caps because they really do damage that creative freedom but I do require characters to generally be within an envelope of effectiveness.

 

I most recently turned down a SPD 12 character, not because it would have made the character too effective but because I thought the player did not play/think fast enough to warrant 12 actions a turn.

 

I also tend not to buy into only speedsters get high SPD because I look at SPD as screen-time and in-genre speedsters don't seem to naturally get more screen time than others.

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

@Doc Democracy, I remember that the late Hyperman created a bunch of DC Heroes that were all SPD 5, that included the Flash. He did it precisely because he stated that the Flash did a lot of things but in a Team Comic he didn’t get anymore “screen” time than the others.

[unclevlad]

Trying to translate a speedster is largely an exercise in futility, moreso than almost all archetypes.  

 

That said, actually giving them SPD 5 and insane movement is probably better than SPD 12.

[Gauntlet]

59 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Trying to translate a speedster is largely an exercise in futility, moreso than almost all archetypes.  

 

That said, actually giving them SPD 5 and insane movement is probably better than SPD 12.

 

I think that it would depend on what type of speedster your character is. Should they just move really fast, then just extra movement, no need for extra SPD. But should they be able to make a huge number of actions in the time it takes a normal person to take one, then high SPD.

[Grailknight]

15 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I think that it would depend on what type of speedster your character is. Should they just move really fast, then just extra movement, no need for extra SPD. But should they be able to make a huge number of actions in the time it takes a normal person to take one, then high SPD.

 

For an excellent example of this, look at the difference between Quicksilver in AoU vs Quicksilver in the X-Men movies.

[Christopher R Taylor]

A lot of things that speedsters do can be simulated with powers rather than speed, but it makes sense for a speedster to have a higher SPD stat than your average bear, at least.

[Ndreare]

Ignoring the negative comments I will share my experience.

 

We have noticed that buying up maximum speed almost always made sense. 

 

So we just had a conversation about it and I asked the players to keep all their characters speed scores within the range of 3-5. Three for the slower tanky types and five max for the speedy and agile types. After that there has not been an issue and it helps us fit better in the range for the enemies in the Bestiary.

Currently in our Urban Fantasy game all but one of the players have a four. He has a 3 because his concept did not require a big speed value.

As a note, we also use a pretty simple rule of X for this game. 
Offensive X = Highest combination of OCV+DC+SPEED
Deffinsive X = DCV+(Total Deffences+Stunn)/5
We do not consider Body for deffince because it seems Stun matters more at our table.

We combine this with Wheaton's law and have no real issue. We love point based games, but they cannot be balanced as it require the GM to create the guidelines. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well no game can be balanced perfectly, that's what the GM is for; to balance things out in play.  In my opinion, balance is highly overrated.  What we need is entertainment and fun.  If everyone has fun in a game with Superman surrounded by street level characters, then you're doing it right.