Super Neko Majin Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 What are your favorite Champions books from before 5e rewrote the continuity? Besides the core rules of course 😉 I know what happened after that but not much of what happened before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 Viper 4th edition, Golden Ange Champions 3rd and 4th editions, Champions in 3D, Champions of the North and Kingdom of Champions stand out to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 I'm probably going to come across as a Scott Bennie fan boy, because the top three on my list were his products. Â At the top is Classic Enemies. Scott gathered together the first big collection of a host of published enemies from pre-4E books, updated their stats to the new system, expanded their backgrounds and characters, and presented all that material in a format that became the template for all subsequent villain and hero write-ups. Â Scott's VIPER source book was the first deep dive into an established Champions organization, tremendously expanding its potential uses in a variety of campaigns. Â Day of the Destroyer was a brilliantly constructed adventure that cemented Doctor Destroyer as the arch mastermind villain of the Champions Universe. Â Close behind these I would rank Steve Long's Watchers of the Dragon, a unique blend of martial-arts character compendium, campaign background/setting, adventure series, and fascinating narrative fiction. Â Dean Shomshak's Ultimate Supermage provided reams of excellent advice and references for magic-focused supers campaigns, and introduced his rich and vivid super-mage campaign setting material and characters. Many additional characters were written up in a companion volume, The Supermage Bestiary. Much of that material was reprinted in various 5E books, but certainly not all of it. Â I can't really rank my other favorites, so in no particular order: Atlantis, Champions in 3-D, Classic Organizations, Kingdom of Champions, Mystic Masters, PRIMUS. There were very few 4E Champs books that I didn't like, these are just personal highlights for me. And all of them are on sale from the Hero online store, at very reasonable prices. Â Â Rich McGee, Hermit and Lawnmower Boy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 Champions II (2e) Fantasy HERO (3E) Star HEEO (3e) Robot Warriors (3e) Fantasy HERO Companion (4e] Western HERO (4e) Â Single favorite book? Â Champions (2e) Â Favorite supplement? Â Champions II Â Â Â Chris Goodwin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 (edited) Four books stand out to me.  The BBB was when Hero/Champions came up to the production of level of the bigger gaming companies. The Perez cover, the combination of all the previous versions of Hero and the inclusion of Champions was just outstanding.  Classic Enemies was a great follow-up with updated versions of many old favorites. It does get a bonus compared to its successors though. The back stories of oldies like Dr D and Eurostar were much more contemporary than they are today.  Ninja Hero is close to my ideal of sourcebook presentation. All the martial options introduced were new, there were several options for building a campaign and they had a viable villain team in the final chapter. Later, we just got huge sprawling worlds that had too much detail to easily personalize and not enough to run a campaign in without still doing the heavy GM work.  Lastly, Champions of the North saw more use than any other book besides the BBB itself. Despite being on a lower power level than my campaign at the time, I was very impressed by its internal consistency. Take out the one outlier (Borealis, who was from a previous book and could have soloed the rest of the cast.) and the heroes and villains were well marched. It was easy to take them and power them up slightly without losing their distinctiveness.  Edited August 4 by Grailknight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 Gotta second Ninja Hero, I think it gave a great feel to the genre and had some wonderful concepts in it that made it feel less generic and more like something a group could pick up and start playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 (edited) I'll echo LL here: in Classic Enemies, Scott Bennie set the standard for Enenies books, and his 4e VIPER sourcebook set the standard for organization books. Plus having scads of neat characters and campaign concepts!  Mystic Masters is the giant on whose shoulders I stood.  Aaron Allston's Strike Force is a master class on how to construct and run a campaign, and not just for Champions. I consider it one of the best game supplements, ever.  Dean Shomshak Edited August 5 by DShomshak Rich McGee and Christopher R Taylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 How could I have forgotten Strike Force. The best game supplement ever written for any game or genre. I can only hope to write something a tenth as useful and impactful. Lord Liaden and Chris Goodwin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 Super Neko Majin, were you interested in just Champions books, or all pre-5E Hero books? Â For some reason, I wasn't thinking about pre-4E Champions books when I listed my favorites. I have to second Christopher's recommendation of the original Strike Force. Besides all the colorful characters, rules options, maps etc., it contained campaigning advice so good, it's become accepted doctrine across gamer space, most of whom don't realize it originated with this book. Â To Serve and Protect gave me my favorite published superhero team, the Protectors, a sterling example of how to build and run a balanced, effective superhero team. Â Wrath of the Seven Horsemen gave me the most long-term use out of any Champions adventure I ever owned. The module is replete with characters, McGuffins, and origin and radiation-accident concepts, to springboard a host of followup scenarios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich McGee Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 (edited) In terms of really enjoyable reads, Strike Force tops my list. I also admit to a soft spot for both C.L.O.W.N. and Foxbat Unhinged, even they aren't anywhere near as actually useful. The VIPER book and Classic Enemies are pretty far up there too. Also rather liked the Circle and METE book. Edited August 4 by Rich McGee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 Foxbat Unhinged. enough said! Rich McGee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted August 4 Report Share Posted August 4 Yeah, better I don't say more about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich McGee Posted August 5 Report Share Posted August 5 19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: I'm probably going to come across as a Scott Bennie fan boy, because the top three on my list were his products. That's not something to be ashamed of. Although still, no Strike Force in your top three? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted August 5 Report Share Posted August 5 To Serve and Protect is one of my favorite adventure modules, I agree its one of the best from pre-5th edition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted August 5 Report Share Posted August 5 In no particular order.  Fantasy Hero 1 (3e) Magic Items The Spell Book Robot Warriors Champions (3e) Danger International Strike Force Enemies: Villainy Unbound Scott Bennie's writeups from the original Gestalt campaign that he posted to Red October. I read and reread these over and over again. The Oddity System, also posted to Red October Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted August 5 Report Share Posted August 5 (edited) 10 hours ago, Rich McGee said: That's not something to be ashamed of. Although still, no Strike Force in your top three?  As I mentioned, I had some brain fart leading me to think we weren't talking pre-4E.  Still don't know if the OP wants to include non-Champions books. My list would boost significantly in that case. Edited August 5 by Lord Liaden Rich McGee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted August 5 Report Share Posted August 5 Since we are talking about pre-5th Champions, quite a few good books won't be considered (DI, Ji, FH, SH, etc). My choices would be:  Classic Enemies - so many gaming hours out of this one Ninja Hero - a great resource for martial arts for heroic campaigns and for Champions Watcher of the Dragons - bringing Champions and NH together. Dark Champions - street Champions action! I am not close to my bookshelves at the moment and something tells me as soon as I seem all the pre-5th goodness that I own, I will go... oooh and that too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich McGee Posted August 5 Report Share Posted August 5 7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: Still don't know if the OP wants to include non-Champions books. My list would boost significantly in that case. Ditto. Champions is my favorite Hero line, but there's some great stuff outside of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bathawk1 Posted August 5 Report Share Posted August 5 VIPER 4th edition no question. Underworld Enemies was in a whole different realm though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted August 6 Report Share Posted August 6 Aaron Allston's Strike Force, Viper (4e), Super Agents, To Serve and Protect, Mind Games, Mystic Masters, The Blood & Dr. McQuark, and Coriolis Effect. If we're talking Hero in general, I'd have to add Danger International and Justice Inc. to my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Neko Majin Posted August 6 Author Report Share Posted August 6 If yall want to do non-Champions stuff, go for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted August 6 Report Share Posted August 6 Non Champions I gotta go with Justice Inc, Danger International, Fantasy Hero 1st edition, Super Agents, Western Hero, Lands of Mystery, and Star Hero DentArthurDent 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmlessTigerMan Posted August 6 Report Share Posted August 6 On 8/4/2024 at 9:41 PM, Chris Goodwin said: Scott Bennie's writeups from the original Gestalt campaign that he posted to Red October. I read and reread these over and over again. Gotta second this. The published version was enjoyable as well.  Classic Enemies - Strong consistent art, and I really liked that although Bennie did a bit of updating and editing, he credits each villain's original creator. How else would we know that Hideous was created by George MacDonald?  The Golden Age of Champions by Chris Cloutier, 1985 version - quirky and a bit goofy, but perfectly matched the source material. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted August 7 Report Share Posted August 7 Classic Enemies, Champions in 3D, Classic Organizations, and Deathstroke are among my favorites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted August 7 Report Share Posted August 7 I'm curious if you did anything with Deathstroke beyond the adventure? For my own games, I decided that given the political climate in America in recent years, the concept of "government by criminals who are at least honest about it" would not be unthinkable, and could have not-insignificant appeal. The bones of an organization given in the module could be substantially fleshed out, particularly with the additions to the group of two people brought in to the group's 4E update in Champions Universe: the mind-controlling mentalist Scatterbrain, and her public-relations-expert father. Rich McGee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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