Constant Powers and Sleeping

[Sean Waters]

15 minutes ago, MrAgdesh said:

...

 

"A character who Recovers during a Phase may do nothing else. He cannot even maintain
a Constant Power (even if it only costs END to activate) or perform Actions that cost no END
or take no time. However, he may take a Zero Phase Action at the beginning of his Phase to
turn off a power, and Persistent Powers that don’t cost END remain in effect."

 

That implies that a persistent Power that Does cost END either does not remain in effect or does remain in effect but prevents you taking a Recovery on your phase.

[Gauntlet]

59 minutes ago, MrAgdesh said:

I don't believe that's correct per 6E1

 

It may have changed in 6E, I know it was the case in older versions. It is something that I feel is still a good idea to use.

Edited July 10 by Gauntlet

[MrAgdesh]

32 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

Unless there are unusual circumstances combat begins on phase 12 6E2 page 18.  This is so that all characters get a chance to act at least once. 

 

You're missing; "Unless the GM rules otherwise, combat always begins on Segment 12. This gives everyone a
chance to act and then take a Post-Segment 12 Recovery (see 6E2 129). If combat begins with
a Surprise attack, the targets don’t get to act on Segment 12 — the attackers get a free Phase."

 

So if your Sir Godley at DEX 15 is fast asleep, and the guy on Watch has nodded off (No Soup for him), my goblin at DEX 10 stabs you and you don't get to react. You just get the Free Post Phase 12 and a Rude Awakening. 

 

I would disagree on the Phase is 1 second. If you abort you next Phase on the next available segment you've still only taken your SPD in actions, regardless of which phases they occur in. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, MrAgdesh said:

You're missing; "Unless the GM rules otherwise, combat always begins on Segment 12. This gives everyone a
chance to act and then take a Post-Segment 12 Recovery (see 6E2 129). If combat begins with
a Surprise attack, the targets don’t get to act on Segment 12 — the attackers get a free Phase."

 

So if your Sir Godley at DEX 15 is fast asleep, and the guy on Watch has nodded off (No Soup for him), my goblin at DEX 10 stabs you and you don't get to react. You just get the Free Post Phase 12 and a Rude Awakening. 

 

I would disagree on the Phase is 1 second. If you abort you next Phase on the next available segment you've still only taken your SPD in actions, regardless of which phases they occur in. 

 

 

Personally I'd allow for anyone after the attacker's DEX's to react, but hey, that's me.

 

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

Yes.  True, well spotted.  A power that is Persistent can't remain Persistent and cost END so it becomes constant if it costs END (6E1 128) but, as you pointed out, a Constant power made Persistent can be Persistent and cost END  So if you wanted a Persistent power, say Mental Defence, to cost END and remain persistent you'd need to add Costs End (-1/2) and Persistent (+1/4), which is effectively -1/4 (the same as Non-Persistent, but with quite different effects). It would then still stop if you were KO'd but not if you were Stunned (or, arguably, asleep - see below).

 

That seems unnecessarily convoluted and asymmetric and it's a shame we can't just have all the rules in one place.

 

You're massively overthinking this. 

 

IMO it's never worth it to apply Costs END to a persistent power.  Why?  What's the implementation, such that it works this way?  Second, remember...that's costing END every phase.  Now...why try to go back and make it persistent?  The ONLY way this is helpful is if it's running off an END reserve...the point MrAgdesh missed is that a Persistent power remains active when KOd *so long as its source of END doesn't empty."  It isn't automatic.  The automatic part is that personal END drops to 0...but the END Reserve doesn't.  There are no contradictions here.  "Persistent powers that cost END stop when KOd" is FALSE...because it skips a major step in the chain of logic, that does not always apply.

 

But, be that as it may.  You're suggesting...start with a persistent, then make it cost END...then why make it persistent again?  Forget that the rules allow it;  the rules create a set of primitives from which powers are built.  Taking a power that's Constant to Persistent, but still costs END?  Sensible in some cases.  The Flight example is good;  a flyer does not want to immediately start falling when stunned.  A persistent power can be converted to a constant power, which may or may not cost END.  So the individual steps in your scenario make sense on their own.  That doesn't mean they make sense *together*...or that the end result is going to work the same.

 

So...yeah, so what, Armor (Costs END, Persistent) gives -1/4?  So does Costs END only to activate, or Nonpersistent.  Costs END, Persistent means it costs END every phase, which you'll have to cover.  And, it's the full END...if you try to apply 1/2 END, you net out at a +0.  So you have downsides but no advantages.  If you want it to remain in place through sleeping or being knocked out, you'll need to tie it to an END Reserve.  ALSO NOTE...applying Persistent back, as in your scenario, increases the active point cost, and thus *may increase the END cost*.  If you exceed 15 active...since you can't take reduced END in this hypothetical...you're talking 2 END per phase you need to account for, if not more.  So, when is this really going to be useful?  

 

Hero is designed to be extraordinarily flexible.  It's a great strength, but also a massive weakness.  The rules are not convoluted, at least here;  this application of them is.  I'll freely grant that the rules can be obscure...did you realize that applying Requires a Roll converts a power from Persistent to Constant?  6E1, 128.  One tiny statement in the section Converting Persistent Powers to Constant Powers.  INCREDIBLY easy to overlook.  Damage Negation acts as power defense...against certain things.  This creates more questions that aren't addressed, which dovetails back to another strength/weakness...the system is massively dependent on interpretation.

 

I totally agree that a complete rewrite and reorganization of the rules would help greatly.  But things like persistent, costs end, persistent...those aren't going to vanish.  

 

[MrAgdesh]

53 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

  The ONLY way this is helpful is if it's running off an END reserve...the point MrAgdesh missed is that a Persistent power remains active when KOd *so long as its source of END doesn't empty."  It isn't automatic.  The automatic part is that personal END drops to 0...but the END Reserve doesn't. 

 

Well, actually, I didn't miss the END Reserve exemption as I referenced it in my opening post. 🙂

 

But, my whole point here has been more about does natural sleep qualify in Game Terms as being Unconscious? I don't think it does. I'm satisfied now how I'll handle it for my own game. 

[LoneWolf]

If the person standing watch is asleep and no one in the party makes their perception roll, the 10 DEX goblin should be able to stab his target without the target being able to react.  In that case since the target is out of combat and he will take x2 stun, and if hit locations are being used the goblin is probably going to do a called shot head so Sir Godley probably will not actually be waking up and may even be dead.  

 

If I am a 4 SPD character and take a recovery in phase 12 and abort to a dodge in phase 1, the recovery took 1 second.  I may be dodging for the next 5seconds (until my phase 6 comes up), but that does not change the fact that my recovery took 1 second.  How long I dodge has no effect on how long the recovery took.  This type of tactic is pretty standard for the Hero System especially Fantasy Hero.  Understanding the SPD chart and how to use it will keep characters alive.  This is probably one of the hardest things for a player from other systems to understand.  
 

[Gauntlet]

The one item I was forgetting about earlier was Uncontrolled. If you utilize Uncontrolled it will then be up and running even if you are Stunned or Unconscious as you pay the END beforehand. So if you want a power running for 5 phases and it cost 3 END each phase you will have to pay 15 END right at the start.

[Sean Waters]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

You're massively overthinking this. 

 

IMO it's never worth it to apply Costs END to a persistent power.  Why?  What's the implementation, such that it works this way?  Second, remember...that's costing END every phase.  Now...why try to go back and make it persistent?  The ONLY way this is helpful is if it's running off an END reserve...the point MrAgdesh missed is that a Persistent power remains active when KOd *so long as its source of END doesn't empty."  It isn't automatic.  The automatic part is that personal END drops to 0...but the END Reserve doesn't.  There are no contradictions here.  "Persistent powers that cost END stop when KOd" is FALSE...because it skips a major step in the chain of logic, that does not always apply.

 

But, be that as it may.  You're suggesting...start with a persistent, then make it cost END...then why make it persistent again?  Forget that the rules allow it;  the rules create a set of primitives from which powers are built.  Taking a power that's Constant to Persistent, but still costs END?  Sensible in some cases.  The Flight example is good;  a flyer does not want to immediately start falling when stunned.  A persistent power can be converted to a constant power, which may or may not cost END.  So the individual steps in your scenario make sense on their own.  That doesn't mean they make sense *together*...or that the end result is going to work the same.

 

So...yeah, so what, Armor (Costs END, Persistent) gives -1/4?  So does Costs END only to activate, or Nonpersistent.  Costs END, Persistent means it costs END every phase, which you'll have to cover.  And, it's the full END...if you try to apply 1/2 END, you net out at a +0.  So you have downsides but no advantages.  If you want it to remain in place through sleeping or being knocked out, you'll need to tie it to an END Reserve.  ALSO NOTE...applying Persistent back, as in your scenario, increases the active point cost, and thus *may increase the END cost*.  If you exceed 15 active...since you can't take reduced END in this hypothetical...you're talking 2 END per phase you need to account for, if not more.  So, when is this really going to be useful?  

 

Hero is designed to be extraordinarily flexible.  It's a great strength, but also a massive weakness.  The rules are not convoluted, at least here;  this application of them is.  I'll freely grant that the rules can be obscure...did you realize that applying Requires a Roll converts a power from Persistent to Constant?  6E1, 128.  One tiny statement in the section Converting Persistent Powers to Constant Powers.  INCREDIBLY easy to overlook.  Damage Negation acts as power defense...against certain things.  This creates more questions that aren't addressed, which dovetails back to another strength/weakness...the system is massively dependent on interpretation.

 

I totally agree that a complete rewrite and reorganization of the rules would help greatly.  But things like persistent, costs end, persistent...those aren't going to vanish.  

 

You're massively underthinking this. It's not about whether someone would start with a Persistent power, then make it Constant, then make it Persistent again: it's about the conclusion that the particular combination of disparate rules leads to.

 

We are as one on the issue of rationalising (and clarifying) the rules though.

 

Lovely.

[unclevlad]

50 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

You're massively underthinking this. It's not about whether someone would start with a Persistent power, then make it Constant, then make it Persistent again: it's about the conclusion that the particular combination of disparate rules leads to.

 

 

So you can make weird, legal, but...shall we say peculiar...combinations of system elements and get non-intuitive results?

 

Yeah.  It's planned that way.  Coherently applying the rules is part of the GM's job.  In some cases, there are instances where combinations are explicitly disallowed, but those can also create niche cases where the combo *should* be allowed. 

 

I also think you're trying to say there's some conflicts that aren't there.

--A persistent power does not automatically turn off due to the character being stunned, KOd, asleep, etc. 

--A persistent power that costs END automatically turns off if that END cost can't be met.

 

No conflict.  They're separate conditions.

 

Heck...I've been making a sloppy statement, I just realized.  Inertia  has Flight that is Persistent, but still costs END.  It draws from his personal END.  Inertia gets KOd.  NORMALLY, the chain is

a)  personal END drops to 0, therefore

b)  Inertia's flight shuts down.

 

That doesn't happen 100% of the time, I don't think...what if Inertia's also benefitting from an Aid to END, that still has some left in it?  That's personal END, but I believe it doesn't instantly fail...the Aid is still in effect until it fades.  It'll get expended as the Flight uses the END that's there...but it is there.  

Gauntlet also pointed out the Uncontrolled case, which would be another exception to the usual chain.  The END in the Uncontrolled pool wouldn't vanish by being KOd.  I'll also note:  since this thread brought up the dichotomy between END Reserves and personal END...END reserves are basically a variant on Uncontrolled

 

The caution here is making the logical leaps that are not always true, because you're looking at only part of what the rules say, in cases like this.  

EDIT:  OK, big qualifier here.  If your point is that a persistent power where you apply Costs END, switching its duration class to Constant isn't really necessary...well, remember that Costs END as a limitation also covers Costs END only to activate, so there wouldn't be an ongoing END cost to bleed away.  Also, note that Requires a Roll also voids Persistent, without invoking an END issue.

[Sean Waters]

15 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

So you can make weird, legal, but...shall we say peculiar...combinations of system elements and get non-intuitive results?

 

I like weird.

 

15 hours ago, unclevlad said:

EDIT:  OK, big qualifier here.  If your point is that a persistent power where you apply Costs END, switching its duration class to Constant isn't really necessary...well, remember that Costs END as a limitation also covers Costs END only to activate, so there wouldn't be an ongoing END cost to bleed away.  Also, note that Requires a Roll also voids Persistent, without invoking an END issue.

 

The point, if I have one, is that a power that is inherently Persistent can't cost END and remain Persistent unless you make it constant then Persistent again, so there's really no point in the rule that an inherently Persistent power can't cost END and stay Persistent or be Persistent but cost END to activate.  It is one of many unnecessary complications.

 

Also, the difference between a KO and a Stun is that you don't lose all your END if you are Stunned, but both do prevent you from maintaining a Constant Power, so there's two reasons that a power might turn off: it does not have the END to fuel it AND you are not able to consciously maintain it.  That is also why the 'Requires a Roll' presumably makes Persistent powers non-persistent: you need to actively do something.  Of course that is not actually the case: you could just have a power that only works half the time and whether it works or not does not require your conscious input.  Of course there's nothing stopping you, if you want an inherently Persistent power to remain Persistent and only work half the time, from buying Requires a Roll and Persistent advantages, but that's just silly.  It isn't that the result is not intuitive, it is that it is inconsistent and badly thought out: do those armoured plates (Resistant Defence, inherently Persistent) that only cover your torso (represented by a Requires A Roll: activation roll 10-) vanish if you get stunned?  No, obviously, unless you apply the rule on page 128, in which case they do.  Sure, if using the Requires a Roll means the character has to do something and they are unconscious and can't then the power does not work, but that's because a Stunned or KO'd character can not do anything.  It would be the same if you (for some reason) had a Persistent power that required Gestures.  6E1 128 says that if a Persistent power has a limitation meaning it only works in some situations then it turns off when those situations are not present but automatically turns back on if they occur again.

 

This analysis means that being asleep means you can not maintain a conscious power, even though you have END, because a constant power requires some level of Conscious maintenance and that being asleep is qualitatively different from being KO'd even though you are unconscious in both cases: you still have all your END and Stun when asleep.

 

My conclusion is that all that a Persistent should mean (whether it is inherent or from an Advantage) is that the power does not need to be maintained.  That, and only that.  It turns off if it is turned off or if it costs END and there is no END to power it.  It would not turn off if it required a roll: it would still be on and if the roll was one that did not require any conscious action on your part, it could still work and if it did require conscious action you could use it when conscious without having to activate it again (not that activating a power is any real burden, generally).

 

Of course, now we need to talk about Uncontrolled which makes a Constant power, however it has been made Constant, work even if not maintained (which is what Persistent does), so long as it has END to burn or does no need to burn END (so, again like Persistent).  In addition it only stops (if it has or does not need END) if certain specified conditions are met.  It would keep working even if the user died, went to another plane of existence or, you know, teleported to the Moon.

 

So lets think about this.  If Mistress Shade has Darkness that she makes Persistent and, for the sake of simplicity, 0 END and she creates a Darkness field, it stays there until she turns it off and she can make others too, if she wants.  She does not need to maintain them so does not need to maintain line of sight or anything, but (and I can't actually find a rule covering this) I'm assuming if she leaves the maximum range of the power, the Darkness turns off.  I'm not entirely sure about that: she definitely needs to be in range to create the Darkness where she wants it and normally (as it is Constant) would need to maintain the Darkness but whether she needs to remain in range is something else.  Anyone?

 

Anyway, let's assume she does need to stay in range, what Uncontrolled does then is sever the link between the character and the power, like the old Independent modifier (sort of).  The character can't turn the power off (except by doing whatever is defined as turning it off) and does not need to remain in range or even alive.  TBH +1/2 seems a little steep for that when Persistent is only +1/4.  I'd reduce the cost, given that the power already has to be Constant.

 

So we would have:

 

Instant power - requires activation each time it is used. Can cost END

Constant power - requires activation but then keeps working unless turned off or the user dies or leaves the range of the power. Requires maintenance. Can cost END (+1/2 to make an Instant power Constant)

Persistent power - requires activation but then keeps working unless turned off or the user dies or leaves the range of the power.  Does not require maintenance. Can cost END (+1/4 to make a Constant power Persistent)

Uncontrolled power - requires activation but then works unless the conditions specified when built are fulfilled and is then permanently off.  Does not require maintenance.  Can cost END (+1/2 to make a Constant Power Uncontrolled)

Inherent power - works all the time and can not be turned off or affected by adjustment powers. Does not require maintenance. Can't cost END (+1/4 to make a Persistent power Inherent)

 

Maintenance is a conscious decision to keep using a power but does not take any time or require any other action.  You can not maintain a power is Stunned or unconscious (KO'd or asleep).

 

Costs END - a power that costs END is deactivated (or can not be activated) if the END cost can not be paid.

 

There: isn't that easier, clearer, more coherent and much, much shorter?

 

 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

15 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

Instant power - requires activation each time it is used. Can cost END

Constant power - requires activation but then keeps working unless turned off or the user dies or leaves the range of the power. Requires maintenance. Can cost END (+1/2 to make an Instant power Constant)

Persistent power - requires activation but then keeps working unless turned off or the user dies or leaves the range of the power.  Does not require maintenance. Can cost END (+1/4 to make a Constant power Persistent)

Uncontrolled power - requires activation but then works unless the conditions specified when built are fulfilled and is then permanently off.  Does not require maintenance.  Can cost END (+1/2 to make a Constant Power Uncontrolled)

Inherent power - works all the time and can not be turned off or affected by adjustment powers. Does not require maintenance. Can't cost END (+1/4 to make a Persistent power Inherent)

 

 

Largely close, but not entirely.  First, tho, let's break these down to the concepts you're trying to capture.  There are actually only a few.

 

Duration:  per RAW, there are 2 principle ones:  Instant and Sustained (better IMO than Constant for expressing the concept).

Focus:  a power that requires focus deactivates when that focus is lost.  This is a simple Yes or No switch.

Activation/deactivation:  Can the player turn it on/off?  This is always Yes by default;  it can, however, be modified by advantages/limitations.

Adjustable:  can be targeted by adjustment powers.  Also yes by default.

 

So, what the rules call Constant becomes Sustained and Focus(Yes).  Persistent is Sustained and Focus(No).  

 

Note that ALL powers, with the exception of Resurrection on Regen, deactivate when their END cost cannot be met.  This is NOT a differentiator because it does apply to all powers.  State that up front and you're done.  So, Uncontrolled is Sustained and Focus(No).  It runs out when its END source is tapped.  A question I don't want to check on...does it gain Deactivation(No)?  I think it would.

 

This is, I think, all you need.  The language is much simpler.  You can express things in these terms, which are each isolated and independent.  So the language whereby a Persistent power becomes Constant when Costs END or Requires a Roll applies?  No.  Costs END simply says that, instead of 0 END per phase, it now costs END.  You can leave it as Focus(No)...and it'll run out when it runs out.  Requires a Roll makes it Focus(Yes).  Uncontrolled, see above.

 

Now let's see if I agree with your descriptions.  Instant is the biggest PITA, because there's clear differences between the truly instantaneous powers like Blast, and the lingering powers like Entangle and Mental Illusion/Mind Control.  The essence of Instant isn't "activation each time it's used."  The point is...while the power's effect may continue, the power itself does not exist.  Uncontrolled can disappear as a concept...the effect is to make the power Focus(No), altho also possibly Deactivation(No).  Inherent does NOT mean Always On;  it means Adjustable(No) ONLY.  Note that the rest of your statement isn't part of Inherent, it's a statement of the conditions required to apply the advantage.  

 

In a power's stat block, then, we can throw out 'duration' and simply note Sustained and Focus.  In the description of Requires a Roll...note that applying it changes a power to Focus(Yes).

 

This might be easier for me because this is a formalistic approach, and that's my training.  We might be able to get the clarifications by developing a proper, better-categorized glossary FIRST...then cleaning out the junk text that bloats *everything*.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The essence of Instant isn't "activation each time it's used."  The point is...while the power's effect may continue, the power itself does not exist.

 

I understand what you are saying but... for the purposes of Hero rules, instant means activate each time its used, because there's a distinction between activation and effect.  If I blast you, it only goes off when I activate it unless you buy it constant etc.  But the Stun damage that it deals can be lingering for minutes or hours, depending on how much under 0 STN you are.  The effect of entangle or mental illusions, for instance, might break the very same segment it is applied or last for hours, but its still instant because the activation is instant.

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

The essence of Instant isn't "activation each time it's used."  The point is...while the power's effect may continue, the power itself does not exist. 

 

51 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I understand what you are saying but... for the purposes of Hero rules, instant means activate each time its used, because there's a distinction between activation and effect.  If I blast you, it only goes off when I activate it unless you buy it constant etc.  But the Stun damage that it deals can be lingering for minutes or hours, depending on how much under 0 STN you are.  The effect of entangle or mental illusions, for instance, might break the very same segment it is applied or last for hours, but its still instant because the activation is instant.

 

It kinda looks like you two are making the exact same argument.

[unclevlad]

16 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I understand what you are saying but... for the purposes of Hero rules, instant means activate each time its used, because there's a distinction between activation and effect.  If I blast you, it only goes off when I activate it unless you buy it constant etc.  But the Stun damage that it deals can be lingering for minutes or hours, depending on how much under 0 STN you are.  The effect of entangle or mental illusions, for instance, might break the very same segment it is applied or last for hours, but its still instant because the activation is instant.

 

Might need to adjust the language...I'll certainly agree that "focus" for "you need to keep focus to keep the power going" is a term with a separate meaning as it is, in a totally different context, so it's confusing.

 

Still, "instant means activate each time it's used" can't be correct, because instant is a duration.  That statement is not a statement of duration.  Nor is it necessary.  ALL powers start with the power being activated.  A power's existence starts with that activation.  An instant power exists only for the brief interval from the time it's activated, to the determination of effect.  (And yes, even then, there's some nasty exceptions, but that shows the rules have a hole/need another duration-related term for completeness.)  Also, the default activation time for a power is zero...it takes no time.  Even an action that requires a half phase (an attack being the obvious)...that's for the entire process of aiming.  The activation of the power itself takes no time.  Therefore, saying it has to be activated each time is unnecessary and obfuscatory. 

 

Now, to be sure:  this notion creates a problem with HAs and HKAs that are frequently noted as having a continuing presence, even if it's not defined as a focus, per se.  If I've got a staff formed of my energy manipulation powers, it's non-intuitive to say I create it only to make an attack, then it disappears until the next one.  No...it has that presence throughout, and its "activation" is subsumed by the action being taken when it's used...strike, disarm, block.

[MrAgdesh]

On 7/10/2024 at 10:39 PM, LoneWolf said:

If I am a 4 SPD character and take a recovery in phase 12 and abort to a dodge in phase 1, the recovery took 1 second.  I may be dodging for the next 5seconds (until my phase 6 comes up), but that does not change the fact that my recovery took 1 second.  How long I dodge has no effect on how long the recovery took.  This type of tactic is pretty standard for the Hero System especially Fantasy Hero.  Understanding the SPD chart and how to use it will keep characters alive.  This is probably one of the hardest things for a player from other systems to understand.  
 

 

That's just one of the many peculiarities of the Speed system. A Phase is not 1 second of time (that's a Segment) even though you may be able to Abort in the very next Segment after your current Phase.

 

A Speed 3 character acts three times in a 12 second period, regardless of him Aborting or Holding. Hence, his Phases average out at four seconds long.

 

 

[Sean Waters]

14 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Might need to adjust the language...I'll certainly agree that "focus" for "you need to keep focus to keep the power going" is a term with a separate meaning as it is, in a totally different context, so it's confusing.

 

Still, "instant means activate each time it's used" can't be correct, because instant is a duration.  That statement is not a statement of duration.  Nor is it necessary.  ALL powers start with the power being activated.  A power's existence starts with that activation.  An instant power exists only for the brief interval from the time it's activated, to the determination of effect.  (And yes, even then, there's some nasty exceptions, but that shows the rules have a hole/need another duration-related term for completeness.)  Also, the default activation time for a power is zero...it takes no time.  Even an action that requires a half phase (an attack being the obvious)...that's for the entire process of aiming.  The activation of the power itself takes no time.  Therefore, saying it has to be activated each time is unnecessary and obfuscatory. 

 

Now, to be sure:  this notion creates a problem with HAs and HKAs that are frequently noted as having a continuing presence, even if it's not defined as a focus, per se.  If I've got a staff formed of my energy manipulation powers, it's non-intuitive to say I create it only to make an attack, then it disappears until the next one.  No...it has that presence throughout, and its "activation" is subsumed by the action being taken when it's used...strike, disarm, block.

 

Activation is a standard Hero term: sure some powers stay activated, but with an Instant power they do not, which is why, mechanically, they need to be activated each time they are used and that means they can not be used unless you can activate them.  You definitely need to activate an instant power every time you use it.

 

Duration: Instant just means that the power is activated then stops.  Duration does not apply to result or effect and there may well be an ongoing effect but that has nothing to do with Duration (in game terms).  Mechanically you need to activate an Instant power every time it is used but not a Constant or Persistent power which stay on once activated.  Mechanically I think what I said above is completely accurate in RAW game terms (apart from the tweak to Persistent).  Turning off a power (or a power turning itself off) does not necessarily stop whatever effect it had while it was working (stuff burned by a Fire Damage Shield remains burned until healed or repaired, for example).

 

The point of mentioning activation is that it is technically necessary: you need to either activate a power, or have a Trigger set or there has to be some rule that activates it for you.  The actual time activation takes doesn't matter.  Switching on (activating) all your powers is a zero phase action (unless you take the Extra Time limitation) but you still need to do it.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

A phase is simply the segment the character can act in.  If I am a 3 SPD character that aborts in phase 1 to a dodge and then punches someone in 8, then aborts to a dodge in 9, I have spent 1 second punching and 11 seconds dodging.  I did not spend 4 seconds punching and 8 seconds dodging.  If I take a recovery and abort to a defensive action in the next segment the recovery took 1 second not 4 seconds.   

 

Using the average to calculate the seconds of a phase is not useful.  Most actions take a single segment to perform, but some actions take more than one segment.  There are also actions that continue until your next turn.  A haymaker takes an extra segment to perform but is still only uses a half phase action.  You can continue blocking until you either miss or your next phase comes up.  For this reason, converting phases into seconds is not practical and serves no purpose.  
 

[Gauntlet]

Another thing that people have a tendency to forget is that you don't actually have to act in your phase. Just because you are a 3 SPEED does not mean you have to act in 4, 8, & 12. You can always save your phase and use your phase 4 in phase 5, or 6, or even 7. Found that this can make a slower character much more effective.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I had a player build a speedster with 8 speed (!).  The problem was that while he was the most brilliant person I have ever met (he literally was a nuclear physicist), he was very bad at making decisions.  He was very, very deliberate about his decisions and so while he came up pretty much all the time in combat, he rarely knew what he was going to do.  So I started giving him about 30 seconds to decide, and then say that he held his action.  It was frustrating because he was such a great guy and very enthusiastic about superheroing.

[MrAgdesh]

17 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

A phase is simply the segment the character can act in.  If I am a 3 SPD character that aborts in phase 1 to a dodge and then punches someone in 8, then aborts to a dodge in 9, I have spent 1 second punching and 11 seconds dodging.  I did not spend 4 seconds punching and 8 seconds dodging.  If I take a recovery and abort to a defensive action in the next segment the recovery took 1 second not 4 seconds.   

 

Using the average to calculate the seconds of a phase is not useful.  Most actions take a single segment to perform, but some actions take more than one segment.  There are also actions that continue until your next turn.  A haymaker takes an extra segment to perform but is still only uses a half phase action.  You can continue blocking until you either miss or your next phase comes up.  For this reason, converting phases into seconds is not practical and serves no purpose.  
 

If a Phase is a second of time, then a normal man doing a full move of 12m (40 feet) is moving at 27mph in that second. If he's moving Noncombat he would be running full out at 54mph.

 

Average that out by 

[LoneWolf]

You are missing the point.  A phase is game mechanic that does not translate into actual time.  It is an abstraction that allows the game to be played. Depending on what is being done a phase can take different amounts of time.   In the case of a recovery which is what my original post is about it can be as little as a single second.   

 

Even by your method how many seconds a phase is varies from character to character and by circumstance.  In the case of SPD 1 character using your method a phase is 12 seconds, but to a SPD 12 character it is 1 second.  But even then, that can change.  How long is the phase for a SPD 12 character performing a haymaker? The character goes in every segment, but the haymaker does not go off until the end of the segment after it was started.   
 

[unclevlad]

10 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

A phase is game mechanic that does not translate into actual time.  It is an abstraction that allows the game to be played.

 

Bingo.  Perfect word.  Phases are the abstraction because continuous time, in a tabletop game, is a real pain.  It can potentially be done, but it's complex at best.

[MrAgdesh]

21 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

You are missing the point.  A phase is game mechanic that does not translate into actual time.  It is an abstraction that allows the game to be played. Depending on what is being done a phase can take different amounts of time.   In the case of a recovery which is what my original post is about it can be as little as a single second.   

 

You actually stated it to be one second, earlier in this conversation, but I agree that it is an abstraction and will vary by manoeuvre and speed of character. If you're Speed 2 I'll still stand by the fact that I consider your phases, on average, to be 6 seconds long though. You act twice in twelve seconds, ergo...

 

 

[MrAgdesh]

10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Bingo.  Perfect word.  Phases are the abstraction because continuous time, in a tabletop game, is a real pain.  It can potentially be done, but it's complex at best.

Aces and Eights does this pretty well, so I assume it's parent of Hackmaster does, too. A bit more bookkeeping perhaps but it seems to flow well. Everything has a cost in seconds or fractions thereof. It stops the HERO problem of somebody of a higher DEX getting to move a big distance and tackle you before you manage to get a shot off at them.

 

 

Edited July 14 by MrAgdesh

[LoneWolf]

I think part of the problem is that it a lot of times phase and segment is used interchangeably.  In most cases it does not matter but in some you have to different between the two.     I am just as guilty of this as anyone.  

 

I don’t think you could use continuous time in the Hero System.  One of the big differences between Hero System and other games is that characters can actually be faster than others.  Hero System uses the SPD stat for this.  Maybe if had a powerful computer to handle the calculations it might be possible, but even then, it would take a huge amount of time to figure out thing and to put in all the data. Other games assume all characters can act about the same per turn.