Hit Locations or No Hit Locations

[Gauntlet]

Just checking to see what people think about utilizing Hit Locations and other enhanced combat steps in Fantasy Hero games. Do you think that they are needed because they make the combat more realistic, or do you think that they just make things to complicated and slow.

[tkdguy]

In my experience, they slow down combat, especially when combined with other combat options.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think they make combat more dramatic and interesting, and raise the stakes.  In a superheroic game, the drama is the spectacle, the larger than life characters and action.  In fantasy or other heroic settings, its more personal, characters are actually in danger.  Leaving out the other combat stuff makes it too safe, and there's less at stake.  Its only one more roll to find the hit locations, and the GM can handle the numbers.

[Doc Democracy]

12 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Just checking to see what people think about utilizing Hit Locations and other enhanced combat steps in Fantasy Hero games. Do you think that they are needed because they make the combat more realistic, or do you think that they just make things to complicated and slow.

 

Neither @tkdguy or @Christopher R Taylor are wrong.  It is all about what you are looking for in your game. 

 

If you want the game to be fast-paced, wounds to be generic with heroes shrugging them off quickly for the next fight, drop the hit locations.  If you want more gritty and grim dark, then every wound is something to be concerned about, combat should be rare, deadly and detailed.

 

🙂

 

The joy of the toolkit is that not only can every campaign be different, you can make every game or session different.

 

"OK guys, the past few sessions have been quite pulpy.  I want this next one to be in a new location where combat is going to be more deadly, as such there will be a few additional rule changes. We good with that?"

[Ninja-Bear]

The thing is if you don’t use hit locations then armor can be more powerful than intended. If a goblin can only muster a 1D6 killing attack then any armor with 6rDef  makes the attack worthless.  There are work arounds such as using Act. Roll for armor though that can have a different effect on combat. 

[tkdguy]

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. You can ignore hit locations unless someone wants to do a called shot or if it's logical to use them, like having an advantageous position in the fight.

[LoneWolf]

I think what Ninja-Bear is referring to is the fact that hit locations use the same basic stun multiple of the older editions. When your max stun multiple is 3 a 1d6 KA is usually useless vs someone wearing any decent armor.  A 1d6 KA is not capable of stunning the stunning a 10 CON character wearing DEF 6 armor that has 2 PD under 6E.  Using hit locations it can not only stun the character, it can knock him out.  You could of course use the older stun multiple, but the hit location rules also increase the BODY to make combat even deadlier.   

 

Personally, those extra rules are one of the big things that makes a FH game feel like a fantasy game.  
 

[Old Man]

6 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Personally, those extra rules are one of the big things that makes a FH game feel like a fantasy game. 

 

This.  The best thing about Fantasy Hero is the added detail from sectional armor, hit locations, and the supporting rules.  Especially compared to other systems that either abstract all these effects away (D&D) or have much clunkier systems that aren't any better (Rolemaster).  It scarcely slows the game down--one extra roll--and it makes combat much more interesting (as well as more deadly).  Subtracting armor from damage at a particular hit location is such an intuitive mechanic I'm surprised it doesn't appear in more systems. 

 

Unlike supers, the fantasy genre puts an incredible focus on muscle-powered weapon combat, so it's better to have a system that can handle that aspect of the game at a much more detailed level.

[Gauntlet]

Of course, I would definitely have to think about the game type. Should your game be like a Conan novel, definitely utilize hit locations, but should you game be more like War of the Rings, not really that necessary as your characters are more like superheroes.

[Ninja-Bear]

19 hours ago, tkdguy said:

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. You can ignore hit locations unless someone wants to do a called shot or if it's logical to use them, like having an advantageous position in the fight.

I forgot about that option. That’s what we do in superhero rules. 

17 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I think what Ninja-Bear is referring to is the fact that hit locations use the same basic stun multiple of the older editions. When your max stun multiple is 3 a 1d6 KA is usually useless vs someone wearing any decent armor.  A 1d6 KA is not capable of stunning the stunning a 10 CON character wearing DEF 6 armor that has 2 PD under 6E.  Using hit locations it can not only stun the character, it can knock him out.  You could of course use the older stun multiple, but the hit location rules also increase the BODY to make combat even deadlier.   

 

Personally, those extra rules are one of the big things that makes a FH game feel like a fantasy game.  
 

That’s not exactly what I meant. But I think the early we did it could be wrong. 

[Ninja-Bear]

I actually like the Average armor Sectional rule. 

[LoneWolf]

One thing that people may not realize is that prior to 6E using hit locations actually reduced the chance of a high stun multiple.   With a d6-1 your chance of getting any specific stun multiple but 1 is 16.666% with a 33.333% of getting a 1. Using hit locations you have a 4.6% chance of getting 5 and about a 13% of getting 4.   So, using hit locations you have a slightly greater chance of getting either a 4 or a 5 stun multiple than you do of getting either one on a D6-1.   But your chance of getting a 4 or higher stun multiple is much higher on a D6-1.  Obviously, 6th edition changes this.  

 

Rolling for hit locations are not what makes combat deadly, it is being able to do a called shot.  Called shots make it easier to exploit when a character is at a disadvantage including having a low DCV.  In a campaign where called shots are allowed being at 0 DCV seriously increases your chance of being taken out.  This is especially true if combined with critical hits.
 

[Gauntlet]

I have definitely fount that having hit locations in a Champions game makes most standard Brick's almost useless as with so low of a base DCV doing call shots to the head become very easy making even their heightened defenses not enough. 

[LoneWolf]

If the brick has some damage negation they will be better off than just having high PD.     

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

I have definitely fount that having hit locations in a Champions game makes most standard Brick's almost useless as with so low of a base DCV doing call shots to the head become very easy making even their heightened defenses not enough. 

A called shot to the head is iirc -8 OCV. How high of a base OCV was your guys having?

[Ninja-Bear]

@Old Man, I’m not against hit locations per se. And I always forgot to use the optional hit locations for the martial arts games, even solo battles. With the right group (people who learn the rules) they’re great. My thing is that with a group of players that may not be familiar with Hero System having an extra set of rules is a hinderance. 

[dmjalund]

how about 'defended head" ability which adds DCV but only vs targeting the head

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

A called shot to the head is iirc -8 OCV. How high of a base OCV was your guys having?

 

OCV and Skill Levels make most characters have from 10 to 12 OCV. Makes Head shots often times a 10 or less against a low DCV Brick as they usually have a base OCV of 6 to 8 plus 4 skill levels. Add offensive Martial Arts to the mix and it many times is even higher. And I am not talking about All Bricks, just the traditional High STR and Defense Brick; stating that you have to pay a lot more attention to DCV on games that utilize Hit Locations. Your typical 80 STR, 40+ rDEF (even possibly Hardened), 5 DCV Brick can truly be in trouble unless he has some way to make him/her harder to hit. A base brick like that needs to purchase skill levels as well, and perhaps even a DCV based Martial Arts (Aikido being a Great One). I have found that in Hit Location Games, Raised DCV, Skill Levels, and/or Defensive Martial Maneuvers are definitely a good idea for all characters, as relying solely on Defense will not truly protect you. And there are a lot of special effects a Full Brick characters can say he/she to give them a high DCV; the most common one being that you have to hit me in the right spot as if you don't my defenses remove absolutely all of your attacks.

Edited July 1 by Gauntlet

[Christopher R Taylor]

Somewhere before 5th edition came out our gaming group started just using hit location rolls for stun multiples on KAs, even in games we didn't have hit locations.  So when Captain Lion slashes the Vermillion Crook with his claws, we'd roll the hit location and use that stunx.  We'd ignore the body multiples, but keep the location for fun: you hit him in the vitals!  Ah, you hit him in the fist.

[Hugh Neilson]

In a Supers game, the cost of 8 PSLs to offset called shot penalties to the head is fairly trivial.  Would you rather have 8 PSLs for hit locations for all MA (16 points) or +4 damage classes with MA (same 16 points)?  In a Heroic game, these costs are much better balanced.  In a Supers game, where DCs are a lot higher, not so much.

 

When we have to start considering bizarre mechanics like extra DCV only against head shots, this is a sign that the mechanic is not well-suited to the game in question.

Edited July 1 by Hugh Neilson

[Gauntlet]

54 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

In a Supers game, the cost of 8 PSLs to offset called shot penalties to the head is fairly trivial.  Would you rather have 8 PSLs for hit locations for all MA (16 points) or +4 damage classes with MA (same 16 points)?  In a Heroic game, these costs are much better balanced.  In a Supers game, where DCs are a lot higher, not so much.

 

When we have to start considering bizarre mechanics like extra DCV only against head shots, this is a sign that the mechanic is not well-suited to the game in question.

 

Plus, at least in my games, I will not allow levels with DCV only to make the character harder to hit against Head Shots, or any type of Called Shot.

 

And yes, no VORPAL Weapons either. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

In a Supers game, the cost of 8 PSLs to offset called shot penalties to the head is fairly trivial.

 

Technically accurate, but you couldn't call shots.  What I described was just a method of determining stun, instead of using d6-1 multiplier.

[Old Man]

16 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Old Man, I’m not against hit locations per se. And I always forgot to use the optional hit locations for the martial arts games, even solo battles. With the right group (people who learn the rules) they’re great. My thing is that with a group of players that may not be familiar with Hero System having an extra set of rules is a hinderance. 

True, but on the scale of learnability the hit location table is pretty easy. It has ten lines, has a pretty intuitive top-down arrangement, and it’s likewise intuitive what the corresponding effects are. It’s not like a Rolemaster table that has a relatively arbitrary distribution of results. It’s also just one table. 

[LoneWolf]

The other thing to consider about the hit location is that if you manage to surprise or stun your target the modifiers for called shots are halved.  That makes the penalty for a head shot -4 instead of -8.   If the target is stunned, they are already at half DCV so the additional -4 is even less of a concern.  If the target is out of combat, they are at 0 DCV and take x2 stun from that on top of the head shot.  

 

So, the 40-defense brick that is surprised will take 44 stun after defenses from a 10 STR character with an offensive strike.  If you boost up the STR to 15 and give the character 4 skill levels he can boost the damage to a base of 8d6 with a decent OCV.  This is about the level of the Karate Kid.  That means Daniel LuRusso can get 72 points of stun through the 40-defense brick.  

 

That means that perception also becomes more important in a game with hit locations. Basically, hit locations mean a character at a disadvantage is way more vulnerable than normal.  In a normal fight where both targets are aware of each other it is not as bad, but any weakness can mean your character is going down fast.   

 

One last thing to think about is that the head shot is not actually the most effective called shot for killing attacks.  A chest shot is only a -3 penalty but has a decent stun multiple.  many characters can handle a -3 penalty fairly easily against a target at full DCV.   
 

[Gauntlet]

1 minute ago, LoneWolf said:

One last thing to think about is that the head shot is not actually the most effective called shot for killing attacks.  A chest shot is only a -3 penalty but has a decent stun multiple.  many characters can handle a -3 penalty fairly easily against a target at full DCV.   

 

I definitely have to agree. Now, yes, a head shot will do a lot more damage, but if you keep missing then it does absolutely nothing. If you hit the chest at least you are doing some real damage, not just hopeful damage.