Tech Posted April 4, 2023 Report Share Posted April 4, 2023 There is more than one instance, such as Viper, where someone has an obvious focus, yet the attack itself is Invisible. Do you simply treat the attacker as Invisible for purposes of hitting an opponent? I doubt this. If an agent is pointing a weapon like a blaster at a hero - even if the attack itself is invisible - the hero will be trying to get out of the way. However, it should be harder to get out of the way of an attack you can't actually see. How do you handle this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 4, 2023 Report Share Posted April 4, 2023 I don't think many characters can see the bullet coming towards them either. If they know they are being attacked, why would their DCV be impaired? An Invisible attack through a focus is likely a sniper's weapon - the user attempts to find a concealed location so that the precise location from which the target is being attacked is difficult to determine. Ndreare, Duke Bushido, Christopher R Taylor and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 4, 2023 Report Share Posted April 4, 2023 I would not build an invisible attack with an obvious focus as that would be foolish but if someone else did I'd just treat it as any other invisible attack with the advantages that implies and, more to the point, they have paid points for. drunkonduty and Duke Bushido 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted April 5, 2023 Report Share Posted April 5, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Sean Waters said: I would not build an invisible attack with an obvious focus as that would be foolish I was of similar mind, but I have been going over Hugh's gun /bullet example, and it holds up. It also leads to a lot of 70's sci-fi where they pointed ray guns, _maybe_ there was a sound, but budget for drawing in energy beams wasnt there, so squibs or sparklers went off, heroes grqbbed their shoulder and grimmaced in pain, etc, etc. In short, it not only holds up, it has extensive precedent. Edited April 5, 2023 by Duke Bushido Tech 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted April 5, 2023 Report Share Posted April 5, 2023 A sniper most commonly is attacking from seriously long range. WIkipedia's got a long article on it; they talk about 800 meters as a useful definition. 800 meters is a range mod of about -13. You won't spot it, so invisible to sight would be unnecessary. A sniper would still want sound suppression, tho...snipers need to fade away, as a rule...but that might be done in various ways. The major point to an OAF, IPE gun is probably to use it in relatively crowded, or at least active/busy conditions, at short range. The goal would be that the target might understand...but the average bystander won't. That said, you really are pushing into Inobvious territory, IMO. "Obvious" not only means "readily perceivable"...it's also "readily recognizable." But that might mean IPE to sound only...a silenced weapon...would fit. Go to the IPE advantage, 6E1 328: Quote Most powers can be perceived by two Sense Groups when they’re in use (see Sensing Powers And Special Effects, 6E1 124). Characters can buy the Invisible Power Effects Advantage (“IPE”) to conceal some or all aspects of the perceivability of a power. So OAF (10 mm handgun), IPE (Sound, Obvious -> Inobvious); OAF (real gun) For purposes of OP's question: if the target can see the gun, he gets his DCV. That's driven by Obvious. What he probably *can't* do is reliably count shots to know when the clip's empty, and those who can't see the gun (hit man in shadow, say) won't be able to hear it. Also, if the target isn't aware of the shooter, he doesn't get alerted to the sound. Basically, you split the perceivability into its different aspects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted April 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2023 14 hours ago, Duke Bushido said: I was of similar mind, but I have been going over Hugh's gun /bullet example, and it holds up. It also leads to a lot of 70's sci-fi where they pointed ray guns, _maybe_ there was a sound, but budget for drawing in energy beams wasnt there, so squibs or sparklers went off, heroes grqbbed their shoulder and grimmaced in pain, etc, etc. In short, it not only holds up, it has extensive precedent. Exactly. As Duke mentioned about the 70s, this is the effect I was thinking of. I wonder if perhaps a +1 OCV might be a good idea to add to the weapon to represent it. Would I need to buy Invis on the attack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted April 5, 2023 Report Share Posted April 5, 2023 Normally an attack is supposed to be visible to two sense groups. Most often it is sight and hearing groups. Some attacks may be visible to other sense groups. Taking invisible can be used to reduce this to a single sense group. I could see taking invisible powers on an attack that is only visible to an unusual sense group. For example a microwave gun that is visible to the radio sense group, but not sight. If the fact the attack is visible to that sense group, I could see allowing an obvious focus. In the case of the microwave gun someone with HRR or Radar would be able to tell the source of the attack was the focus. This of course assumes the sense is usable at range. This could be the case with the 70's blaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted April 5, 2023 Report Share Posted April 5, 2023 6E1 does give an example of a power visible to the radio group, but I think that's a poor idea. It feels too rare. By your argument, could someone define a power as perceivable to the Radio and Unusual groups? It would seem to be supported, but it's not balanced. For a free swap, I'd require it to be an equal swap...a standard sense group for a standard sense group OR, if you're picking up an unusual group like the radio group, then for the Sight group, it goes from Obvious to Inobvious...from not needing a PER roll to notice, to needing that PER roll, for example. It feels like you're getting too much if the radio (or mental) group is allowed for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted April 6, 2023 Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 Sound and touch. That would build low-budget 70s ray guns and pepper mil-- uh, Daleks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 10, 2023 Report Share Posted April 10, 2023 On 4/5/2023 at 8:40 PM, Duke Bushido said: Sound and touch. That would build low-budget 70s ray guns and pepper mil-- uh, Daleks. It doesn’t work unless you scream “EXTERMINATE!” 😁 Duke Bushido 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted April 10, 2023 Report Share Posted April 10, 2023 On 4/5/2023 at 4:28 PM, unclevlad said: 6E1 does give an example of a power visible to the radio group, but I think that's a poor idea. It feels too rare. By your argument, could someone define a power as perceivable to the Radio and Unusual groups? It would seem to be supported, but it's not balanced. For a free swap, I'd require it to be an equal swap...a standard sense group for a standard sense group OR, if you're picking up an unusual group like the radio group, then for the Sight group, it goes from Obvious to Inobvious...from not needing a PER roll to notice, to needing that PER roll, for example. It feels like you're getting too much if the radio (or mental) group is allowed for free. Unusual is not really a sense group, it is more of a collection of senses that don’t fit into any other group. The rules state you have to buy invisibility or darkness to each unusual sense separately. For that reason, I would not allow the unusual group to be defined as one of the sense groups an attack is visible to. By default, one of the sense groups is usually sight, the other is usually sound. If the special effect fits those can be changed but the GM should be looking over any changes to make sure they are not abusive. If the player wants to define an attack as being visible to a different sense group, they should have a good reason besides I want an invisible attack. The Hero System gives us great freedom to create anything we want, but to paraphrase Stan Lee, with great freedom comes great responsibility. I would have no problem with a character purchasing a partially invisible attack and defining the other sense group as Radio. My hearing aids can detect when a Microwave is turned on if I am close enough when they are on telephone mode. It does the same thing when any other device that is putting out a strong electrical field. They also pick up the broadcast of the museum audio. The Microwave gun would probably create a similar interference to radar and other radio-based senses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted April 10, 2023 Report Share Posted April 10, 2023 Suppressors affect accuracy so they are not often if ever used with sniping despite movies. At that kind of range all you can really tell is that the shot came from one side of you, echoing off everything and so far away. And you already knew that from the bullet impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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