Supreme Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 I want to design a character based on the skill-downloading concept from the Matrix. Basically, the guy was working on a machine that downloaded skills into the human brain. When he found out his boss was getting funding from terrorists he tried to turn him in, but was grabbed by the crooked boss instead. The boss jacked my character into the machine and clicked "Download All" which everyone thought would short-out anyone's brain. Because my character is special (i.e., a PC) it didn't and he became The Expert!!! So, I was thinking why not expand the Universal Translator (with "only known human languages" as a limitation) idea into the other skill enhancers: Universal Scientist, Universal Scholar, etc. So, who amongst us would accept this in their game and who wouldn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 I would just buy the character a VPP, Sciences Only: -1, with the Skill Roll being Power: Expert. The same goes for Knowledge Skills and even languages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cubist Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Yes, just go with the skill VPP, its way less abusive and can allow for skill levels as well. Sort of like the character Deepload from the old F.R.E.E.Lancers game/books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Posted February 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Believe it or not, I actually think that VPPs are more abusive because they give you much more for much less. A Universal Skill group is 20 points. A VPP skill pool is anywhere from 4 to 6 points (depending on whether or not buying "cosmic" is considered necessary). The Skill VPP allows virutally any skill whereas the Universal Skill Group only allows skills within that group: sciences, languages, knowledge skills, etc. And skills aren't allowed in frameworks are they? 5th Ed. didn't change that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 I have to point out that this (either a Skill VPP or "Universal Skill") is going to be abusive if the game is skills-intensive -- and it's also going to risk stepping on the toes of every other PC who invests in a Skill. I have a house rule which says that for purposes of Adjustment Powers, a Skill has an Active Cost equal to the roll times 5 (11- = 55 points, etc.). If I were going to allow a Skills VPP, I would probably use the same rule, so a 14- Skills VPP would be 70 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Originally posted by Supreme A Universal Skill group is 20 points. A VPP skill pool is anywhere from 4 to 6 points (depending on whether or not buying "cosmic" is considered necessary). The Skill VPP allows virutally any skill whereas the Universal Skill Group only allows skills within that group: sciences, languages, knowledge skills, etc. That is why I suggested buying each "class" of skills as a separate VPP. You would have a Science VPP, A Knowledge Skill VPP, a DEX-skills VPP, etc. I also suggested you use the Power Skill to make the changes, thus costing the character more points. And skills aren't allowed in frameworks are they? 5th Ed. didn't change that right? It is a gray area that is a GM's call. For a dedicated VPP I would have no problems, but I would not allow a player to buy a skill in his Magnetic Pool or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Dpending on how it functions in a game I don't see a problem. It's just a improved version of Jack Of All Trades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Posted February 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Originally posted by Geoff Speare I have to point out that this (either a Skill VPP or "Universal Skill") is going to be abusive if the game is skills-intensive -- and it's also going to risk stepping on the toes of every other PC who invests in a Skill. I have a house rule which says that for purposes of Adjustment Powers, a Skill has an Active Cost equal to the roll times 5 (11- = 55 points, etc.). If I were going to allow a Skills VPP, I would probably use the same rule, so a 14- Skills VPP would be 70 points. YOW!!! Okay, a little steep, but you have a point. Monolith That is why I suggested buying each "class" of skills as a separate VPP. You would have a Science VPP, A Knowledge Skill VPP, a DEX-skills VPP, etc. I also suggested you use the Power Skill to make the changes, thus costing the character more points. Even so, that'd still be only 20 points for all five groups. What about making this Detect-based, as UT in 5th Ed. is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Originally posted by Supreme Even so, that'd still be only 20 points for all five groups. Make them by it per Char based skill. ie..Dex, Int..ect. Make it a little more expensive for the character, but could also make it alittle less abused Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 My house rule on this is as follows: A character can buy a skill enhancer and then use it to purchase skills in game, there has to be a special effect and the skill must make sense in that sense, there is also a maximum of only being able to spend two points on the skill in question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Keneton Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 In an interseting altenative, my current player character "Psiren" has Cramming with a limitation that she can only aquire a skill after suceeding on a +10 telepathy power on a person posessing the skill. Customizing this for Matrix, change the limitation to downloadable programs only using neural jack (-1) or something to this effect. For more complex skills by severl levels of cramming. The VPP is technically not abusive if the Power Pool is kept very low (Max 15 points). With a limitation that skills may only be bought to the base (3pt) level. Noone could then be a kung fu master of best computer guy for 15 points. Thisalso stops the VPP from adding to oter skills. Overall levels with a limitation are also a good way, assuming the character has a familiarity with what he downloads. Also the character could have points that are the target of a major transform allowing the skills to change from adventure to adventure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogier300 Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 So do you think you could buy skill levels only usable with Crammed skill? That might work pretty decent to reflect a 'downloaded' skill set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Keneton Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattingly Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Under 4th Ed, you couldn't buy levels with Cramming, since Cramming only gave you Familiarities, and you couldn't use Skill Levels with Familiarities. I believe it's still that way under 5th Ed. Otherwise, for 150 points, you could buy 50 Familiarites and +10 Overall Levels, making you the most highly skilled sneak/ scientist/ pilot/ detective/ etc. on the planet as well as a combat master! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Posted February 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Originally posted by mattingly Under 4th Ed, you couldn't buy levels with Cramming, since Cramming only gave you Familiarities, and you couldn't use Skill Levels with Familiarities. I believe it's still that way under 5th Ed. Otherwise, for 150 points, you could buy 50 Familiarites and +10 Overall Levels, making you the most highly skilled sneak/ scientist/ pilot/ detective/ etc. on the planet as well as a combat master! Well, there is something to be said for the hard way. For one thing, it means a GM can't disallow on the basis of rule-breaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Keneton Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Reagrding the no skills of familiarity, I understand that. Technically skills aren't allowed in multipowers and we still have Cat Stance Horse Stance etc... The suggestion about VPP is technically the same. I allow multiple levels of Cramming to add so that at 2 levels you get a full skill and not just a familiarity. It is not abusive (10 points for one skill) and hence then I allow levels to be placed as they are no longer just familiarities. I should have added this to my prior answer. Thanks for the check! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferat Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 The global guardians have a house rule that is much like you are discussing. 20 points for 'global' knowledge in various areas. I suspect its been fairly playtested as a result. I'd post it here, but they have an irritating copyright statement, so I'll just post the link to it: http://www.globalguardians.com/house%20rules/talents.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 I have a special variant myself, what I jokingly call the "Stuff" option. If you have the appropriate Skill Enhancer and 5 attached skills bought to INT level, you can buy a 6th slot called "Stuff" up to INT level -- but you can never buy a "Stuff" skill beyond the base INT level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Originally posted by ogier300 So do you think you could buy skill levels only usable with Crammed skill? That might work pretty decent to reflect a 'downloaded' skill set. Cramming says pretty clearly that the roll cannot be increased in any way; moreover, the text for Familiarity says that Skill Levels can't be used to increase the roll. This is easy to house rule, but IMO makes it too easy to master any relevant skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerandir Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 Believe me, I've gone through this very same discussion before, in my various attempts to build a character named 'Renaissance Man'. Technically, according to FREd, you can put skills in a VPP, if your GM says it's OK (it requires GM permission on about 3 different levels, but it's possible). Obviously, everything is possible with GM permission, and nothing without. Many GM's will almost certainly veto a skill VPP for the reasons that have been brought up on this thread. I know I would... The Universal (Skill Group) Talents are a decent house rule, but, like any house rule, require the GM to be on board. However, the increased cost of such a talent, vis-a-vis the VPP, may help you out. Failing to acquire GM permission in both cases leaves the option I eventually went with: The 'Super-skills' VPP. Essentially, you buy a VPP of powers with the special effect that you're really good at lots of things. I.e., I used Clinging to simulate Climbing, and so forth. Mental Powers & Enhanced Senses are really good for simulating a lot of interaction, knowledge and science skills. If your GM doesn't go for that either, then you're out of luck, as far as I can see. In answer to your original question, if I was the GM, I'd probably allow the Universal (Skill Group) Talents, but I'd have to make them available to other players, which could dilute your character's uniqueness. I would not allow a VPP for the purposes of buying skills only, no matter how limited (though Geoff Speare's notion of increasing the cost of skills for the purposes of buying them in a VPP has merit). I also like the Transform idea someone proposed. The real problem is that, if you're playing in a skill-intensive campaign, the ability to know everything and do anything is inherently abusive, unless you make it so expensive the character literally can't do anything else. In a campaign with less focus on skills, no matter how cheap you make it, the character is going to waste a lot of points on the ability to have skills he won't need. You won't often hear me say it, but this is a character who is much easier to write up in SAS or GURPS Supers than in Hero... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 13, 2003 Report Share Posted February 13, 2003 Originally posted by ferat The global guardians have a house rule that is much like you are discussing. 20 points for 'global' knowledge in various areas. I suspect its been fairly playtested as a result. I'd post it here, but they have an irritating copyright statement, so I'll just post the link to it: http://www.globalguardians.com/house%20rules/talents.html How can they copyright a house rule I have seen several other sites use - and I came up with independently (not that my group uses it) - for a game they don't own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 13, 2003 Report Share Posted February 13, 2003 If you want to know every science in the book, it's simple. Buy Science Skill: Comprehensive Terran Science at a 31 or less. With an Intelligence of 25, it's what? 37 points. When something comes up and someone says, hey, that's impossible unless you studied that exact science - you say "sure" and apply the -10 penalty - so you have a 21 or less. If they say it's impossible because it would require specific scientific knowledge AND it's not Terran Science you say "sure" and apply a -10 and another -10 and you have an 11 or less. Works just fine and keeps your character sheet nice and short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted February 13, 2003 Report Share Posted February 13, 2003 cheese cheese and more cheese. When i play a character who spent points on a specific science, knowledge or skill cluster, assuming no one else bought those specific things, I want to be the one to be solving the problem or coming up with the critical information, not some point-monger who finagled some way of being able to have any skill, knowledge or science whenever they need or want it. If I was running a game, I would definitely veto any of these things. If I was playing in a game, I would ask the GM to veto these things. Allowing these things instantly devalues all non-combat skills, science, languages, area knowledges, etc. on all other characters. $0.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted February 13, 2003 Report Share Posted February 13, 2003 I agree with you in most cases. I do not think my version is that abusive (it just grants a character a way of getting the skills his concept should have during play, it makes it easier to do the Reed Richards, or a character who can learn a language after a few minutes of listing to it type of characters), however it does depend on the game in question, a character who spends 20 point on sciences in my games is the standard super scientist (Even with the house rule), while in some other games if they spend that much on all there Non Combat skills it is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted February 13, 2003 Report Share Posted February 13, 2003 Originally posted by BNakagawa When i play a character who spent points on a specific science, knowledge or skill cluster, assuming no one else bought those specific things, I want to be the one to be solving the problem or coming up with the critical information, not some point-monger who finagled some way of being able to have any skill, knowledge or science whenever they need or want it. If I was running a game, I would definitely veto any of these things. If I was playing in a game, I would ask the GM to veto these things. Allowing these things instantly devalues all non-combat skills, science, languages, area knowledges, etc. on all other characters. I generally agree -- which is why my house rule makes it so goshdarned expensive. Even with that rule, it would require GM permission and a real good reason for me to allow it in a game. I had this issue come up in a high point campaign that never got past character design: one of the players was a chip-skill guy who ended up eclipsing someone else's character who had substantial Skill investments. (It didn't bother me, as I was playing the character with the lowest skills:point total ratio I think I've ever designed.) "All skills" is just too broad an area of expertise for any campaign where skills are more than background color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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