Is padded armour underated?

[unclevlad]

Oh, heck no.  A bad recovery time wouldn't be multiple attack only...it'd be Full Phase, if not Extra Segment or Phase.

 

And fine...each one taken individually is small.  But start looking at the total size.  It won't *stay* small.  This kind of explosion never does.

[theinfn8]

You have some good points on weapon speed, but I would point out that being trained with heavier weapons also includes the techniques to maintain threat. Heavy weapons are typically wielded in arcs and have enough reach that you are back attacking again before the opponent can close. Any opponent trying to block these weapons with a lighter weapon are going to be blasted off the line as well. They are definitely slower, but that doesn't mean they are ineffectual.

 

And I don't really know where I'm going with this. I just melted my brain on a six hour discrete math final. I will readdress when my thoughts are recovered. I know I had a point somewhere...

[Christopher R Taylor]

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A bad recovery time wouldn't be multiple attack only...it'd be Full Phase, if not Extra Segment or Phase.

That's excessive, in my experience and what I have heard from others. They're slower to use, but not actually slow.

[Pattern Ghost]

I think one big issue with representation of armor in RPGs is that Grandpa D&D took a kitchen sink approach to everything, including mixing armor types from different time periods, coupled with either a lack of understanding of historic armor types, or a deliberate genericizing of same. So, I think it's entirely appropriate to limit available armor and weapon types in your campaign if you're going for a more realistic or low fantasy setting.

 

Something along the lines of progression of armor types:

 

Clothing -> Quilted Linen Gambeson -> Brigandine coat over Gambeson -> Mail Hauberk or Shirt over Gambeson

 

That would give:

 

Clothing: Best movement, some small amount of normal PD and no resistant PD.

Gambeson: Good movement, more normal PD with small amount of resistant PD.

Brigandine: Poor movement, Gambeson defenses plus additional resistant PD.

Mail: Medium movment, Gambeson defenses plus additional resistant PD, but only slightly higher than Brigandine

 

So, setting aside that by default Hero makes the distinction only between blunt and slashing/piercing combined rather than all three, we've not got movement penalties to consider. Probably imposing small DCV penalties would be a simple solution to imposing a restriction on movement. You could also add in increasing LTE costs if using that option.

 

Or you could just do the kitchen sink thing with D&Desque armor types and call it a day. Much simpler that way.

[kukuli]

Here is a video I ran into a couple of days ago on You tube. 

 I'm not really familiar with actual amour but this guy has done some research.  It's from a few years ago and he has other related videos. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Some people, like the Greeks, used to build layered cloth armor that was waxed, so it was hard and rigid, protecting better against some kinds of attacks.  I don't know how well it would be but I bet its as good as leather.

[Ninja-Bear]

52 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Some people, like the Greeks, used to build layerd cloth armor that was waxed, so it was hard and rigid, protecting better against some kinds of attacks.  I don't know how good it would be but I bet its as good as leather.

I read an article some where that a professor did make some of the cloth armor. Now he was particular and use wool and had it turned into cloth the way they used too. (He found an artisan to that does it.) And he was able to use natural wax also in it. Anyways his students found that it became adjust to their body types in a day and form fitting. I’m not sure how he tested the armor but came to the conclusion that it did help the defender. I’m thinking something akin to a flak jacket whereas a direct solid hit may not be stopped but glancing blows and such did offer protection. 

[unclevlad]

An interesting point there is the production aspect.  The modern bovine cycle has a few stages;  for milk production, calves are weaned away early (and a high percentage then slaughtered because they're literally eating the profits);  a great deal of beef production brings the cattle up to body weight that balances the amount that can be produced, versus the time and expense.  

 

I don't know how much this held, tho, back in the medieval periods.  The whole cycle for cows, horses, or oxen is also pretty slow...long gestation, long growth periods.  I suspect that a lot of what we think as "medieval" is rather later.  Cow products could well be pretty rare, save in areas where it was a specialty.  Milk and cheese might not be super-rare...but might be as much from sheep or goats, altho I know goats produce very little milk per animal.  Again...very much local.  (This is even before talking about transportation and preservation issues.)  

 

That all argues that leather armor should be relatively uncommon.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

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That all argues that leather armor should be relatively uncommon.  

 

Well, you can make leather armor out of something other than cattle, of course, and while herds were generally smaller than the vast American ones in medieval Europe, it was rare for someone with lands to have just one or a couple of cattle.  The key here is expense: armor was very expensive, and only wealthier people could afford one.  

 

However - and this is a big aside - medieval economics bore very little resemblance to what we now know.  I mean, aside from the largely barter economy at the lower end, there was a huge divergence between the poor and the rich.  It was like first world and third world living next door; for the bulk of the population shoes were a once-a-year or longer specialty and for the others, they were dripping in jewels.  It was a vast gulf far, far greater than anything people are used to or experience today.

 

Today you're poor if you can't afford the latest Nike when it first comes out or your smart phone has only one camera.

 

So what was a major expense for some was a minor quibble for others.  Armor was completely beyond the peasants and serfs, even if they poached a cow and cured the leather themselves (somehow).  Its not that this stuff was necessarily denied the rabble (although often it was), it was that they simply couldn't come up with it even if they'd been allowed.

 

And the big reason for standard medieval things like no standing professional armies, knightly tournaments, and even wars or crusades was that it was expensive to keep men at arms around.  Especially when your big expense is awesome parties and clothes, sumptuous feasts, furnishings, and castles.  You pillaged your lands with taxes, fees, and so on to raise money to pay the men, and then pillaged your enemies (hopefully) so that the men get paid by looting.

[unclevlad]

On 9/5/2021 at 6:01 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

And the big reason for standard medieval things like no standing professional armies, knightly tournaments, and even wars or crusades was that it was expensive to keep men at arms around.  Especially when your big expense is awesome parties and clothes, sumptuous feasts, furnishings, and castles.  You pillaged your lands with taxes, fees, and so on to raise money to pay the men, and then pillaged your enemies (hopefully) so that the men get paid by looting.

 

The standing professional armies also have to be kept from becoming a plague on your people.  What do they do with themselves?  Garrison duty is BORING.

 

Plus, you need to maintain the support elements...smiths, leather and woodworkers, cooks, what passed for physicians, etc.  

 

I suspect that standing armies require higher-efficiency food production, too.  The troops represent a significant drain there.

[indy523]

Shadiversity has videos discussing Gambeson armor which is a real armor used by knights in the medieval ages that is probably what padded armor is based on.  As he describes it in his videos it is very good at stopping cutting and slashing attacks and not that bad against arrows.  He does real life tests so you could get an idea watching his videos.