Resistant to being teleported and resistant to transdimensional powers

[Ninja-Bear]

I wanted to give a shout out to Sketchpad! I was earlier going to just quip about Custom Power but he went out and designed a Custom Power! Kudos @Sketchpad

[Sketchpad]

22 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I wanted to give a shout out to Sketchpad! I was earlier going to just quip about Custom Power but he went out and designed a Custom Power! Kudos @Sketchpad

 

Thanks, @Ninja-Bear.  

[unclevlad]

Thought on the custom power:  yeah, it's another way to do it, but the costing is way out of proportion.  This *is* 5E, so yeah, ok, it matches the cost of Teleport, but this defense is *incredibly* narrow.  Teleport is really king of the hill among movement powers (kinda discounting XDM, which is a weird power).  It is also one that *screams* to be in a multipower, in 2+ slots...one for combat movement, one for non-combat.  Once you've got that, then mechanically adding a UAA is nothing.  OK, as a practical matter, it's quite possible that a UAA teleport won't be buying that many inches of base movement;  quite often it'll also be picking up Megascale as well so the base inches need to stay relatively low.  But that's hard to assume.  And even then, 10" would seem to be the minimum practical level to buy, so we're talking 20 points.  For such a rarely needed defense, that's a lot.

 

BTW:  if the notion that it shouldn't be terribly expensive because it won't come into play very often appeals, then as a secondary aspect:  make it a Special Power.  That way it can't be added to a framework.

[Sketchpad]

32 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Thought on the custom power:  yeah, it's another way to do it, but the costing is way out of proportion.  This *is* 5E, so yeah, ok, it matches the cost of Teleport, but this defense is *incredibly* narrow.  Teleport is really king of the hill among movement powers (kinda discounting XDM, which is a weird power).  It is also one that *screams* to be in a multipower, in 2+ slots...one for combat movement, one for non-combat.  Once you've got that, then mechanically adding a UAA is nothing.  OK, as a practical matter, it's quite possible that a UAA teleport won't be buying that many inches of base movement;  quite often it'll also be picking up Megascale as well so the base inches need to stay relatively low.  But that's hard to assume.  And even then, 10" would seem to be the minimum practical level to buy, so we're talking 20 points.  For such a rarely needed defense, that's a lot.

 

BTW:  if the notion that it shouldn't be terribly expensive because it won't come into play very often appeals, then as a secondary aspect:  make it a Special Power.  That way it can't be added to a framework.

 

So, in concept, T-Port Resistance is resisting Combat T-Port, since it'd be an attack, and NCM T-Port, since it typically isn't an attack. If you have to have NCM, I would use the same multipliers/adders as T-Port for NCM.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

This *is* 5E, so yeah, ok, it matches the cost of Teleport, but this defense is *incredibly* narrow.

 

Right, its a narrow beam to walk, but when it comes to rule bits I'm like Alton Brown: I don't like unitaskers.  Defenses like "impenetrable" are so narrow and exceptional as to be a nearly useless expenditure of points.  And on the other side of the spectrum, power defense protects you from nearly anything and is too broad.

 

But bottom line, defenses should be a fraction of the cost of the attack.

[unclevlad]

Not what I meant.  Combat teleport is the teleport you use to maneuver around the battlefield...ergo, most likely lots of inches, no non-combat distance extensions because those require an extra phase.  Non-combat teleport is arriving on-scene;  Megascale becomes the norm, or you simply can't cover any real distance;  your teleport might as well be Leap, really.  It'll largely act like Leaping.

 

So in 6E it might be:

 

Multipower 40 points

--Combat:  Teleport, 32", 1/2 END

--Traveler:  Teleport, 12", 1" = 100 km (+1 1/2), No Range Mods, Safe Blind Teleport (39 active)

 

Nice regional range, the no range mods and safe blind teleport should protect you from being TOO far off target.

Now, of course, we can get into some more slots:
 

--Rescue Time!:  Teleport 10", 1" = 1 km, No Range Mods, Safe Blind Teleport, UAA (recipient must be close to grantor).  I think you should probably be able to buy it with No Range, but HD is whining about that.  It wouldn't help with the active cost anyway.  10 km is 6 miles;  in a town/city, that should be good enough, and worst case, it should be plenty to get the victim to paramedics/healers.

--Cavalry Charge!:  Teleport 11", 1" = 10 km, No Range Mods, Safe Blind Teleport, Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people total, recipients must be close), 1/2 END

 

Note that Rescue Time! is also Grab n Go...perfectly good for a kidnapping or to dump the target into a place he'd really not want to be.  

 

(Yes, I like teleporters.  Yes, I like going to a VPP that's Teleport ONLY;  the options and costing structure make it worthwhile to do this.)

If you don't want to build a scaling power, then another avenue is something I add to my combat-type teleporters...either Blast (No Range), or HA, with NND (defense is having XDM or Teleport, or a phase-shifting form of Desolid (GM's discretion).  My concept is that my teleporter can kinda use his teleport as an attack, phase-shifting you in a highly disorienting manner.  Ergo, the stun damage, and the defense is, well if you can phase shift anyway, you just laugh at the attacker.  The same argument holds for Teleport or XDM UAA;  the defense is having something very similar.

 

This might not entirely apply to OP's setup, but I think it could be adapted to fit reasonably well.

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its probably worth slipping something into the description of Usable as an Attack like "must have a defense" so you have to define something that blocks it even if its DCV.

[unclevlad]

On 6/3/2021 at 10:27 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its probably worth slipping something into the description of Usable as an Attack like "must have a defense" so you have to define something that blocks it even if its DCV.

 

Sorry if this sounds pedantic, but that statement strikes me as *seriously* wrong.

 

DCV is different from a defense.  There are 2 steps:

 

1.  Is the target capable of being affected by the attack?  Normally, this means "does the attack hit the target?" or "is the target within the attack's area of effect?"  

2.  Determine the degree:  compute the attack strength, reduce by the target's defense.

 

If DCV is the defense, then the presence of DCV means that the attack fails, or in some manner the DCV reduces the attack strength.  

 

The parallel that I think you have in mind is the +1 1/2 level of AVAD.  This, I agree with.  UAAs will rarely have any notion of scaling damage associated with them, so implicitly it becomes NND...with no scaling, the "how much impact does the power have?" becomes binary.  It wouldn't have to be, per se;  if KB resistance is the defense against a UAA movement power, then there's a decent contested scaling available.  Whether this should be accepted as an adequate defense...might be a different story.  But that's why UAA is a Stop Sign power.

[LoneWolf]

About the only way that DCV would work as a defense would be if it only affected someone with 0 DCV.  So it would only work on helpless characters or those completely out of combat.  Kind of defeats the purpose of putting on UAA.  At that point you might as well use UOO.   

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

About the only way that DCV would work as a defense would be if it only affected someone with 0 DCV.  So it would only work on helpless characters or those completely out of combat.  Kind of defeats the purpose of putting on UAA.  At that point you might as well use UOO.   

 

As written, it's up to the GM's discretion whether a helpless person would be willing, but the text suggests this is *not* normally the case.  That's why I mention the rescue situation;  unless the GM rules otherwise, to teleport an unconscious accident victim to help, you need UAA.  And the option is based on "would the target be willing to have the power affect him?"  The case of kidnapping a sleeping target is pretty clearly a No;  an incapacitated target would almost *have* to be a NO, unless there is some manner where the unconscious person can recognize the teleporter as a friend.  I'd limit that greatly;  it certainly would NOT cover a teleporter who works with, say, the city's emergency services.

 

Also, 6E1 p. 355:

 

Quote

When a character creates a “can be forced on the Recipient” UOO power, he must define a reasonably common and obvious set of defenses that cancels out the attack. For example, Flight UAA might not work against any character who had Flight, Desolidification, or Power Defense. (The defense doesn’t have to be “active” or “turned on,” the target simply has to have it available.)

 

So, that requirement is already in place...but the problem is that we don't necessarily look *there*.  The discussion of UAA is 3 pages later.  The structure isn't very good...but it also doesn't help that 6E is trying to be everything to everyone and makes it *insanely* complicated.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

When a character creates a “can be forced on the Recipient” UOO power, he must define a reasonably common and obvious set of defenses that cancels out the attack. For example, Flight UAA might not work against any character who had Flight, Desolidification, or Power Defense. (The defense doesn’t have to be “active” or “turned on,” the target simply has to have it available.)

 

So it is basically in the rules, just not clear and easy to find.  And yeah DCV probably isn't a valid defense, since everyone is going to have that to begin with, so its not a defense, its just part of the mechanics of Usable as an Attack.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok, after going over this thread, I feel the best answer would be Power Defense with a limitation of Dimensional Powers. (Here I would specify that to work against T-port, the T-port is defined as Dimensional movement, like it usually is thought of). I think the value should be -11/2 for more “typical” Champions games. I would also note that the Power Defense is bought as an assumed defense of UAA.  GM approval is needed as per usual.

[Greywind]

-11/2? Not sure if that is steep or cheap.

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Greywind said:

-11/2? Not sure if that is steep or cheap.

Well, I’m thinking that in my experience, Dimensional energies are very rare and I cannot remember a T-port UAA. So I figure as a base limitation -1 1/2 is a good starting point. I can see it being as high as -2. Now naturally if the game has more of Dimensional energy and or T-port UAA, then the limitation should be less.

I’m sure Lord Liaden could answer this but how common is either Dimensional Energy or T-port UAA in the main line Champions Universe?

[LoneWolf]

Power Defense was listed as an example so it only works if the character who bought teleport UAA defined the defense as being Power Defense.   If he defined it as something else power defense only works vs dimensional powers does absolutely nothing.   It also does not prevent a teleporter from doing a grab and teleport and taking the target with him.   

 

If you want a power that is going to be prevent you from being teleported it needs to cover both situations.   There are two ways to accomplish.  The first is to increase your mass beyond what the teleporter can carry.  Density increase works really well for that.  The second is to find some way of countering the teleport.  The only way I can see that working would be to use your own teleport.   

 

One way would be to turn the teleport UAA back on the person trying to teleport you.  Buy your own teleport with the following modifiers,   0 END + ½, Constant + ½, Persistent + 1/4, Trigger +1, UAA +1 ¼, only to counter being teleported.   This would not only prevent you from being teleported, but would also prevent the person teleporting you with a teleport and grab from teleporting.  Basically you subtract your teleport from theirs.  If you have more teleport no one moves, if they have more you both move by however much their teleport exceeds yours.  You could reduce the cost by making it something you needed to do and removing or reducing the advantages.    
 

[Ninja-Bear]

Lonewolf as was mentioned, UAA needs to have reasonable defenses that it doesn’t work against. Power Defense is a suggested Defense. Yes this works with a agreeable GM. I mentioned that earlier in my post. For all the benefit that the OP is asking for compared to the actual use of the attack powers? Limited Power Defense works fine.

[unclevlad]

Power Defense is also scaling.  How does the damage scale with a Teleport UAA, is it based purely on the base amount in the teleport?   
 

47 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

Power Defense was listed as an example so it only works if the character who bought teleport UAA defined the defense as being Power Defense.   If he defined it as something else power defense only works vs dimensional powers does absolutely nothing.   It also does not prevent a teleporter from doing a grab and teleport and taking the target with him.   
 

Not necessarily.  It can simply be defined as a new defense, that works, PERIOD...that in the campaign, a standard defense against an undesired teleport is this one.  There may be others, but this is a given.  You're basically asserting that the definition in the UAA is the only thing that matters.  What this also comes down to is, how much freedom should be allowed in powers design?  It's too easy for the player to try to exploit this by naming something too weird.  

 

That said...yes, N-B, what you're saying is that Power Defense IS the defense, so I can simply buy my 10-15 points of Power Def and skip the limitation.  Buying some Power Def isn't automatic, but it's also useful enough to consider for most characters.  If Power Def with a limitation can work as the defense, then Power Def with no limitation automatically does.  Is that what you want?  

 

 

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

The defense that works against UAA is defined by the person purchasing the power.  If I define the defense against my Teleport UAA as having extradimensional powers then power defense does absolutely nothing.  Just because power defense may protect against some UAA power does not mean it will work on all.  Even if it works on one power with the advantage another character can and will build the same power differently and what protected vs the first power will not affect the second one.   

 

Even if power defense is the defined defense vs a teleport UAA that still does not prevent the teleporting character from doing a grab and using his normal teleportation to take the character along when he teleports.  Sine a character cannot use a power with UAA on themselves. that means the teleporting character will have a teleport without the advantage.  Purchasing power defense does absolutely nothing to prevent this.  The only way to prevent this is to directly counter the teleportation. 

[unclevlad]

6 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

The defense that works against UAA is defined by the person purchasing the power.  If I define the defense against my Teleport UAA as having extradimensional powers then power defense does absolutely nothing.  Just because power defense may protect against some UAA power does not mean it will work on all.  Even if it works on one power with the advantage another character can and will build the same power differently and what protected vs the first power will not affect the second one.   

 

Even if power defense is the defined defense vs a teleport UAA that still does not prevent the teleporting character from doing a grab and using his normal teleportation to take the character along when he teleports.  Sine a character cannot use a power with UAA on themselves. that means the teleporting character will have a teleport without the advantage.  Purchasing power defense does absolutely nothing to prevent this.  The only way to prevent this is to directly counter the teleportation. 

 

First:  I'm saying that sometimes, this should NOT be allowed.  Sometimes a UAA should always have a defined defense, not simply what the player wants it to be.

 

Second:  debatable.  6E1 p. 300 says 

 

Quote

A character who’s Grabbed or Entangled may use Teleportation to escape from such restraints. If Grabbed, he cannot carry the character Grabbing him along with him unless he simultaneously uses Teleportation with Usable As Attack (see 6E1 358).  A character with Teleportation who Grabs a character cannot then Teleport and carry the Grabbed character with him unless he has enough Increased Mass to handle the extra weight and the GM permits this.

 

So it's less than clear, and actually leans to contradictory interpretations.  Why does it matter who's grabbed, who's not?  Or is the first part saying that the teleporter has to use *2* separate instances of Teleport at the same time...one for himself, one for the grabber?   If that's the case, then why isn't this the rule when the teleporter is grabbing someone not willing?  Also, in the kidnapping scenario:  much of the time, the kidnapping teleporter will want to travel with the victim, to secure them at the destination for example.  It feels counter-intuitive that this requires 2 separate activations.

 

Some of this is just that Teleport is phrased very oddly, IMO, with the mass limits, and the mass limit as an adder is brutal.  And the structure of Usable On Others is less than clear.  To be sure, teleportation is IMO worth a Caution sign, in that it always has problematic implications.  (Yeah, just how are you gonna stop the teleporter from popping into the White House and offing the President by bringing in 50 pounds of C4, starting a 10 second timer, then teleporting away?  Or if not the White House, how about just blowing up a house, generally.)  Teleport is pretty much the Desolid of movement powers in terms of abuse potential.  Some of the rules (especially the special costing for fixed locations) seem to me to recognize the issues, to a point.  And some of it is, I think, that UOO is written VERY badly.

[LoneWolf]

The thing that makes the Hero system unique is that you get to build your own powers.  Special effect is something that should be very important.   You can have two powers that are identical in game terms but have completely different special effects.   One character may have the special effect on his teleport UAA is he is able to open portals between dimensions.  Another character could have the special affect he stops time and physically moves the target while time is stopped.  Another character could be calling on a demonic entity that is capable of altering reality.  The first example may have the defense having teleport as the defense, the second could have time powers as the defense, and the third could have the defense of being pure of heart or something similar.   Imposing an arbitrary defense that does not have anything to do with the special effect of the power is contrary to the spirt o the Hero System.  

 

Normally when you are grabbed you cannot use any movement.  A moving character has his movement reduced to 0m and cannot movement until he breaks the grab.  Under the rules for grab they make a specific exception for teleport.  Entangle works the same way and has the same exception.  Grab also allows you to control the person you have grabbed.  Being grabbed does not allow you to control the person grabbing you.  This is the reason you cannot teleport someone who has you in a grab.

 

When you have someone in a grab you can use your movement and carry them with you.   The type of movement does not matter so a teleporter can take someone with them because that is how grab interacts with movement powers.  The only difference with teleport is the teleporter has to be able to carry the mass of the grabbed character.   Normally teleport only allows you to teleport yourself (no matter what your mass) and your own gear.  To teleport additional mass always requires an adder.  The rules for grab do not change this.  The sentence about needing extra mass is more of a reminder of an existing rule than a rule into itself.  
 

[Hugh Neilson]

It's tough to analyze this kind of thing in a vacuum.  In Brust's novels featuring Vlad Taltos, everyone teleports everywhere.  If a defense against Teleportation is to exist at all, it would be a regular point purchase.  In a gritty, realistic game, it's free - there is no teleportation to be blocked, so who cares what resistance to teleportation costs?

 

In a game where teleportation UOO or UAA exists, maybe the best answer is "what is the resistance worth?"  If it's a spin on an existing power, I suggest "only reduced TPort" removes most of the utility, as resisting TPort does not come up much, so that's a -2 limitation.  That may still be far too expensive for the benefit.  So maybe we just make it a perk.  Is it worth less, as much as or more than being King of a small European or African nation?

 

What I would most want to avoid are the twin possibilities of:

 

 - "Wow, only x points to get that benefit?  We should all buy it!"

 

and

 

 - "Having run the character for a while, I would have been far better off to spend the points on some plain vanilla purchase like CV, skill levels, speed, defenses or a higher attack."

 

Both the player and the GM have an implicit obligation to be reasonable. 

 

If an ability is frequently very useful, it should not be purchased for 3 points.  A reasonable player gets that, and won't try to get something for nothing. 

 

If an ability rarely comes up at all, and/or is largely just flavour when it does, it should not cost 25 points.  A reasonable GM gets that, and will assess the points spent with a commitment that those points will be equally valuable in this game as other abilities that other players invested similar points in.

[LoneWolf]

The Steven Brust novel are not a good example because they are all using the same special effect when they teleport.  In that series the only way to teleport is by using sorcery, which is done by drawing on the imperial orb.  Since the special effect is the same the defense will also be the same.  In the series teleport blocks are accomplished the same way by a spell to block teleporting.  The spell in the series would be written up as a barrier with affects teleport, but that does not exactly conform to the rules which is a common occurrence when trying to use a literary source as an example.  In the series there is no defense that a person can have that simply possessing it will prevent teleportation. 

 

The most common defense I have seen against teleportation UAA is having teleport yourself.  Having the base power be the defense for a UAA power is a good option.   Keep in mind that you don’t have to be using the power and any amount of the power stops it cold.  If you want to be able to resist a teleport for a character who cannot already teleport you could simply purchase teleport only to resist teleport.  You don’t even need to purchase reduced END since you will never actually be using your teleport.  A -2 limitation would mean that 10m would cost you 3 points.  This will stop the teleport UAA but still does not stop the grab and teleport.  This makes a lot more sense that purchasing power defense.  Technically you could simply purchase 1m of teleport, but most GM's I know would veto that as being to cheesy.  

 

In  my original post I suggested density increase with the limitation only vs dimensional power  as a solution to the OP question.  As I noted it also protects against other power besides teleportation.  The extra STR could be used against entangles and telekinesis which had the right special effect.  The Extra STR may even be able to be used to break the grab of someone trying to teleport you, but that is going to be up to the GM. The extra PD and ED would also apply to power with the transdimensional advantage as well as those with the right special effect.  Even the knockback resistance will be useful vs a power with the right special effect.  For 20 points it actually give quite a few benefits vs a number of powers besides teleport.  If you want to reduce the cost simply reduce the number of levels of density increase.   Most teleporters don’t have more than a few levels of extra mass.  3 level of density increase drops the cost to 8 points (7 point if it is always on), less if it only applies to teleport. 

 

 

The triggered teleport UAA I proposed not only stops the Teleport UAA it also prevents the teleporter from teleporting away by teleporting him back to your location.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

What I would most want to avoid are the twin possibilities of:

 

 - "Wow, only x points to get that benefit?  We should all buy it!"

 

and

 

 - "Having run the character for a while, I would have been far better off to spend the points on some plain vanilla purchase like CV, skill levels, speed, defenses or a higher attack."

 

 

I agree, and the best way to do this is to make it so that it is useful for more than just resisting teleport.  In other words, make it a sort of universal "exotic attack defense" or something like that which you can break down with limitations to only work on what you want.  Have it work on things like indirect and penetrating, stuff that doesn't come up much but has a special advantage now in the rules which nearly nobody even considers, because why waste the points?  

 

In fact, that might be the way to fix Damage Negation, which does not feel right to me yet.  Make it reduce x active points per block of purchase, and work on oddities.

[Ninja-Bear]

14 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

In fact, that might be the way to fix Damage Negation, which does not feel right to me yet.  Make it reduce x active points per block of purchase, and work on oddities.

Are you suggesting for Damage Negation something like 1D6 DN would negate 5 CP of T-port? I can see it being used like this. 

[LoneWolf]

You make it a universal exotic defense and everyone will buy it.  Doing so would eliminate the exotic attacks because they are now easy to stop.   Most exotic attacks are expensive and often less effective than the same number of points in basic attack.  The reason people are willing to pay the points for them is because they are difficult to defend against.   The Idea of a universal defense is a bad idea and should not be even considered.