Rethinking the Archer type

[Colossus]

One of the great super hero types with several movie, TV, and cartoon examples as well as the classics in comics Hawkeye (Bishop or Barton) and the Green Arrow family.

 

Constantly you see these characters losing their bow and either stabbing someone with a trick arrow or throwing the arrow at a nearby target.  In Champions if the Bow and Arrows are bought as OAF you cannot do that, once you are out of luck.  Alternatively is you buy them as a OIF you cannot be disarmed of the bow, which does not sense.

 

 

 

Here is my idea. 

Create two Multi-Powers:

 

The First is the Quiver purchased as an OIF with the -1/4 additional Limitation of Range Based on STR

 

The Second:

15       Bow:  Multipower, 30-point reserve,  (30 Active Points); OAF (-1)       

2f         1 - Accurate Shot:  Compound Power: (Total: 30 Active Cost, 22 Real Cost) +3 with Arrows (Real Cost: 15) plus> +15 STR (15 Active Points); Limited Power Only to Offset Range Based on STR (-1) (Real Cost: 7)

3f         2 - Dodging Shot:  Compound Power:  (Total: 30 Active Cost, 30 Real Cost) +4 DCV (Real Cost: 20) plus  CLS +2 Arrows (Real Cost: 10)

1f        3 - Distance Shot:   Distance Shot:  +30 STR (30 Active Points); Limited Power Only to offset Range Based on STR (-1)

3f        4 - Grapple  I:  Swinging 40m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points)

1f       5 - Grapple II:  Leaping 60m (30 Active Points); Limited Power Only within 60' of structure (-1)

2f       6 - Strike:  Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6 (30 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

 

The 27 points spent on the bow are most likely more than you are going to save for the total of going from a OAF to an OIF plus the Range on STR.    I think this is offset by the bonuses of buy the Martial Art like maneuvers as part of the bow.  In fact you could make more.   The Bow doubles as a basic linegun and you can also just hit someone with it.   

 

What do folks think.

[Greywind]

Buy your arrow multipower/charges/whathaveyou. Buy the bow as the range effect on the arrows.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

The simplest way would probably be to buy the multipower OIF with a shared Limitation of Use at range requires OAF bow (-1/4).  If you or your GM object to that Limitation, Greywind's method is the next simplest I can think of. 

[pawsplay]

Put OIF on the bow, OAF on the slots that require you to actually shoot.

Alternatively, the bow is OIF but the shooting slots are Restrainable.

Alternatively, the bow it's a focus at all. It's Alternate ID, maybe Restrainable for the shooting, that's it.

[Ninja-Bear]

What I did was use variable limitation. I don’t have the write up with me at the moment. 

[dsatow]

I made the bow +6 penalty ranged OCV mod levels for a group of attacks OAF and +3d6 HA OAF.  The trick arrows were a quiver OIF multipower.  The arrows were OAF (multiple focii or less effective) with charges slots.  A PC could take the bow away and the archer could still throw arrows at a target but they wouldn't be as good unless they were close.

[LoneWolf]

This does not work.  The rules for power frameworks specifically prohibit a slot in one framework from “adding to, or modifying the slot in the same or another framework, or the same or another framework as a whole”. 

 

One thing that might work is to use the requires multiple focus or it functions at reduced effectiveness.  Consider the bow and arrows to be separate focus.  To use the multipower at full you require both foci.  If they take away the bow you can still use the arrows In a limited manner.  A lot of it is going to be up to the GM.  
 

[unclevlad]

Buy the package as restrainable.  DON'T try to split things into the bow part and arrows part;  that way madness lies because definitions won't be able to cover the varying effects on the arrows.  In some cases, the bow doesn't add to the damage...think flash arrow.  But in others, it will.  Define the shots as blast, flash, KA, whatever, and work out, based on special effects and the attack types, what the arrows alone do when used as stabbing weapons.

 

Insofar as OP's bow multi...beyond the point that, yeah, you can't link framework to framework, I wouldn't ever allow buying the equivalent of martial maneuvers in a framework.

[Tjack]

  Coming at this from the other side... What about a bow & arrows that are a part of the character.  You tend only to see this in Fantasy settings but what about a power that manifests like the flaming B&A combo from the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon. You can check out the effect in animated style or as a live action In a car commercial on YouTube.

[Amorkca]

21 minutes ago, Tjack said:

  Coming at this from the other side... What about a bow & arrows that are a part of the character.  You tend only to see this in Fantasy settings but what about a power that manifests like the flaming B&A combo from the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon. You can check out the effect in animated style or as a live action In a car commercial on YouTube.

 

That's not a focus situation, its just special effects. No limitation on the ability.

[segerge]

On 8/5/2020 at 3:53 PM, Greywind said:

Buy your arrow multipower/charges/whathaveyou. Buy the bow as the range effect on the arrows.

 

In 6e, couldn't you buy the bow as a List with 2 slots ("Naked Advantage: Range Based on STR for active quiver multipower slot" and "+ xd6 HTH Combat") sharing the "Unified Power" and "OAF" disadvantages, then buy appropriate CSL's as skills?  This should side-step any problems with having a Power Framework slot enhancing a slot in another Power Framework.

 

If you really want to min-max, buy Lockout on both slots in the List as well since both can't realistically be used simultaneously.

[pinecone]

I did a Multi power, Lim: Bow can be taken away as a OAF, -1/4 and called it good, with a Bow (any bow) I can shoot my powaz, without, I can Hth, or toss them....

[Michael Hopcroft]

On 8/7/2020 at 4:30 PM, Tjack said:

  Coming at this from the other side... What about a bow & arrows that are a part of the character.  You tend only to see this in Fantasy settings but what about a power that manifests like the flaming B&A combo from the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon. You can check out the effect in animated style or as a live action In a car commercial on YouTube.

Sailor Mars has a similar power, in her case a manifestation of her spiritual power-- she's a miko (called a "Shrine Maiden" by English speakers, although like most approximations of Shinto the term isn't quite accurate) in a fire shrine, and uses flames as a scrying tool as well.

[steriaca]

3 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

Sailor Mars has a similar power, in her case a manifestation of her spiritual power-- she's a miko (called a "Shrine Maiden" by English speakers, although like most approximations of Shinto the term isn't quite accurate) in a fire shrine, and uses flames as a scrying tool as well.

Mars Flame Sniper. The Bow And Arrow are only special effects based on the fact that she is spiritually attuned to fire, and the Japanese bow and arrow are considered objects of the spirit.

[Colossus]

On 8/5/2020 at 6:31 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

What I did was use variable limitation. I don’t have the write up with me at the moment. 

I think this is the perfect answer.   Thanks

[Jhamin]

I'd leave the writeups as is & let the archer user a power skill roll to stab someone with his ammunition.  It usually only happens once or twice at most, so a power skill "trick" is a clean way to do it without really over-complicating builds for the sake of something that happens rarely.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, Jhamin said:

I'd leave the writeups as is & let the archer user a power skill roll to stab someone with his ammunition.  It usually only happens once or twice at most, so a power skill "trick" is a clean way to do it without really over-complicating builds for the sake of something that happens rarely.

 

Depending on your source material, and your vision of the character, this may happen a little or a lot.  It happens a lot on Arrow.  If you want to be able to do this routinely, spend the points on a "no range" multipower and a "naked ranged advantage" bow.  If it will be a freak occurrence, then Power Skill covers it.  Seems like every now and then, those Archers nock two arrows, which could be a separate  build (maybe a VPP that can hold two arrows, maybe a 2 shot Autofire limited with, say, Concentration, whatever) or it could be a Power Trick used once or twice in a campaign.

 

We had a character who had a bow with naked range and 16 charges, IIRC, and a Multipower of no range arrowheads (modular attachments to the arrows, or they could be tossed no further than an adjacent hex), each with limited charges, IIRC no more than 6 each.

 

There is no "one right way" to build a character.

[dsatow]

So for the hell of it, this is how I would make an archer in 6th.

 

 

[Jhamin]

12 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

There is no "one right way" to build a character.

 

Clearly there isn't one right way.  This is Hero, that's the point.
I was expressing the opinion that for most cases a power skill is probably fine.  I think lots of times a power skill roll is fine rather than an extra slot in a multipower that gets used one game in 20 or buying weird defenses "only when ready, only vs X thing".  It's fine.

If you plan on stabbing people with arrows frequently, then the Hero way is that you have to pay for it.  Just like you have to pay for all your standard abilities, in which case yours is a good way to handle it.

It just isn't what I typically would recommend for the occasional stab.

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, Jhamin said:

It just isn't what I typically would recommend for the occasional stab.

 

This depends on how frequent "occasional" is.  Exotic defenses don't come up often in many games, but it does not make them free.  If the character expects to be able to use his powers at no range without the bow, routinely, the answer is an ability he pays for.  Watching how often this tactic is used in Arrow, that's an ability that should be costed out.

 

As well, with a 60 AP Multipower, how good does your Power Skill roll need to be in order to substitute "No Range (-1/2)" for "OAF: Bow (-1)" reliably?

 

Ultimately, the limitation for OAF is a big one, and it comes with the cost of being denied access to that power on occasion. If, whenever the bow is gone, the character can reliably use the powers, albeit at no range, then the powers are not limited by that OAF - only their Range is.  I would apply your statement

 

10 hours ago, Jhamin said:

I think lots of times a power skill roll is fine rather than an extra slot in a multipower that gets used one game in 20

 

as

 

A power skill roll is fine rather than an ability that gets used one time in 20 when the character is denied access to his bow.   If the normal result of being disarmed is "well, I will have to use my Martial Arts, not my arrows", then Power Skill for rare use of the arrow powers HTH probably works fine.  If the routine result is "Oh, well, I guess I will stab him with an arrow", then the bow limits range only, not the attacks as a whole.

 

In Arrow, he probably also has a Weapon Element of "Arrow" for his Martial Arts!

[ScrewySquirrel]

I usually get around the problem of archers in melee by giving my archers a bit of martial arts.   Because  a bow is usable as a melee weapon exactly *once*, and then its useless as a bow, and arrows are going to be less effective than a knife in melee.

[Greywind]

It depends on what the bow is made of.

[ScrewySquirrel]

a bow used to hit someone will be damaged, dented or warped and shooting arrows will be inaccurate and lack power at best, and impossible at worst.  even one made of metal has to be able to bend, which means thin material that cannot take stressors outside the expected pull.

[dsatow]

2 hours ago, ScrewySquirrel said:

a bow used to hit someone will be damaged, dented or warped and shooting arrows will be inaccurate and lack power at best, and impossible at worst.  even one made of metal has to be able to bend, which means thin material that cannot take stressors outside the expected pull.

 

That's real life.  Comic book bows and bows in action movies/shows seem to take a beating and keep on firing.  There is a level of real life physics that gets suspended based on the genre. 

 

After all, to be honest, when you have the strength to lift 100tons, punching someone with your fist isn't a simple bashing attack to break a few bones.  You aren't exerting 60-80 PSI (a normal punch), your exerting something like 60K-80K PSI.  Your punch should probably go through most people.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 8/20/2020 at 9:38 PM, Greywind said:

It depends on what the bow is made of.

One of the Animated Green Arrow (iirc) has his bow turn into a staff. I’ve used that concept before.