Not Using Body Damage. Is It Viable?

[White Fish]

So I'm new to the system, but from what I understand Body Damage only represents how close to death someone is in this game system and has no other effect on characters.  The feel I want for the game is that death ONLY happens in a coupe de grace situation on an incapacitated character. I have read that some other effects work off of Body so I don't want to suppress the that stat.  I also want damage to objects and constructs to be common occurrences.
So would this be the best way to represent this? 
Obviously KA, and Resistant Defenses would go by the wayside but is there anything else that I should be worried about this effecting? 
Should I keep Body Damage for Inanimate Objects and Constructs or is there a way to Convert Stun for this purpose?

Thanks for the advice!

[Scott Ruggels]

24 minutes ago, White Fish said:

So I'm new to the system, but from what I understand Body Damage only represents how close to death someone is in this game system and has no other effect on characters.  The feel I want for the game is that death ONLY happens in a coupe de grace situation on an incapacitated character. I have read that some other effects work off of Body so I don't want to suppress the that stat.  I also want damage to objects and constructs to be common occurrences.
So would this be the best way to represent this? 
Obviously KA, and Resistant Defenses would go by the wayside but is there anything else that I should be worried about this effecting? 
Should I keep Body Damage for Inanimate Objects and Constructs or is there a way to Convert Stun for this purpose?

Thanks for the advice!

 

 I think there needs to be some more context in this request. In general, However, you can, in your own game ignore the body stat for characters if you so choose. But body may be necessary for damage against inanimate objects, and constructs. But you can always  count one body point per stun die if you need such effects. Keep it simple.

[Amorkca]

2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

 I think there needs to be some more context in this request. In general, However, you can, in your own game ignore the body stat for characters if you so choose. But body may be necessary for damage against inanimate objects, and constructs. But you can always  count one body point per stun die if you need such effects. Keep it simple.

 

For example, with no body damage how would you knock down a wall?

[pbemguy]

3 hours ago, White Fish said:

So I'm new to the system, but from what I understand Body Damage only represents how close to death someone is in this game system and has no other effect on characters.  The feel I want for the game is that death ONLY happens in a coupe de grace situation on an incapacitated character. I have read that some other effects work off of Body so I don't want to suppress the that stat.  I also want damage to objects and constructs to be common occurrences.
So would this be the best way to represent this? 
Obviously KA, and Resistant Defenses would go by the wayside but is there anything else that I should be worried about this effecting? 
Should I keep Body Damage for Inanimate Objects and Constructs or is there a way to Convert Stun for this purpose?

Thanks for the advice!

 

I could see playing it this way for a Superfriends-type campaign, or like the old Spidey Super Stories...or a Scooby-Doo game. Most villains wouldn't have Killing Attack-style powers (no claws or knives). Like, a character may have a knife or a chainsaw but because of its "TV rating" there is no chance that someone is actually going to get stabbed.

 

So you could eliminate the Body damage and just rely on Stun for the characters. If you need an effect where someone is near death, say from a fall, you could just make it the GM's option, or you could say that "reality dictates" that bones were broken etc.

 

Like Scott Ruggels said, you'll still need the Body dice for breaking things like walls etc. but you could use it only for that. 

 

So...sure! And in fact it sounds like fun. My question to you: Is this how you intend to use it? In a "Superfriends" kind of way?

 

PS: An alternative idea is to get rid of Stun and just use Body for everything, and treat the Body like Hit Points, and change the rule so that if you go to 0 Body you just go unconscious. This would be interesting because your characters would stay conscious a lot longer than a standard game! Then the whole game is on Body (Hit Points) and is automatically less lethal because -10 Body could just mean that they are unconscious for a long time. I think that would be my preferred route:

Body = Hit Points (Eliminate Stun)

 

Let's say Ken has 10 Body, 20 Stun, 2 ED. So someone fires a 12d6 Blaster at Ken. You roll 11 Body. Ken subtracts his ED. 11-2=9 Body, he's still up. (He's at 1 Body)

Using regular rules, the same blast would do something like 40 Stun. 40-2=38 Stun damage, he'd be unconscious. (He's at -18 Stun)

 

 

 

[Grailknight]

Much ado over almost nothing.Ignore this if you are playing at a heroic or fantasy level however.

 

In a typical superheroic game, BODY damage very seldom comes into play as a threat to PC's. Lower DEF characters may take 1 or 2 pips every so often, but the threat of death usually only comes to captured or incapacitated PC's  or normal level npc's. Just limit or eliminate Killing attacks from your villain arsenals and you'll be fine without making any changes to actual game play.

 

If you feel you still need changes,Knockback will be the rule most commonly affected. Otherwise, BODY will mostly come into play on destroying objects and Transforms

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

It would be simple enough to ignore BOD damage on all living characters.  It does beg the question how the old trope that the villain will kill that innocent person if the hero does not let him go, but it could also be used to enhance the trope.

 

Current Rules:  "Well, that's a handgun, so maybe 1dd6+1 BOD - we can paramedic Old Aunt Ida if we have to."

 

BOD as Coup De Grace Rules"  "He has a gun to Old Aunt Ida's head.  If he pulls the trigger, there are no rolls - she is killed."

 

As several above have noted, in a game with low lethality from the start, just ignoring BOD damage is no big deal.

[LoneWolf]

For the most part it’s actually pretty difficult to kill someone in a champion’s game unless you are using high dice killing attacks.   Even when using powerful real world weapons they cannot outright kill most normal people.  Take a Desert Eagle pistol, it is a 2d6+1 RKA which means it does a maximum or 13 Body, but on the average does 8 Body.   A normal character has 10 Body and does not die until they have taken 20 Body.  Using a rifle will increase the damage a little, but not that much unless you are using a weapon capable of autofire.   Anything with any kind of armor is going to reduce this significantly.  To really threaten someone one with death in a Champions game you have to use powerful weapons designed to kill people.

 

Most characters other than normal innocent bystanders are going to have enough defenses to withstand the Body of a normal attack.  Sure they may take a Body or two here and there but for the most part it rarely comes into play.  

 

About the only time that characters take a lot of body is in a heroic level campaign using the optional hit location and critical hits.  In those campaigns combat can be deadly and characters are taking are risking their life by engaging in combat. 

 

The biggest consequence I see for ignoring body is that it is going to make it difficult to threaten innocents.  If you are running some sort of bugs bunny campaign then it may be ok, but in anything more realistic without the chance of taking body it going to be hard to threaten normal.  A big part of most Hero systems games is actually being a Hero.  If the players know that the people the villain is threatening is not in any real danger they have less reason to try and save them  rescue them quickly.   Now instead of worrying that if they don’t take out the person holding the hostage before they can hurt them, they will ignore the danger to the hostage and use a safer way to take out the villain

 

In my opinion the real reason the rules for taking Body damage exist in most Champions games is to give the players something to worry about.  Sure Spiderman does not need to worry about being killed by most of the things he goes up against, but Aunt May on the other hand will be obliterated by them if she gets hit.    
 

[White Fish]

Thank you all for the responses.
 

On 7/18/2020 at 6:27 PM, pbemguy said:

So...sure! And in fact it sounds like fun. My question to you: Is this how you intend to use it? In a "Superfriends" kind of way?

No, but I might use it for a "cartoonish" humor based campaign later. 

9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

BOD as Coup De Grace Rules"  "He has a gun to Old Aunt Ida's head.  If he pulls the trigger, there are no rolls - she is killed."

It's more this style, the main set of villains are either High Tech Military or have NND attacks that make rolling damage irrelevant against civilians. 

10 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

most Hero systems games is actually being a Hero.

This one is not, it's about not giving up your freedoms. It's more Runaways/Black Lightning than Avengers/Justice League. Low accidental death is campaign choice, with being captured and government control chipped being the main result of failed combat.

My main goals are to make killing always a choice made by the killer, and minimize the what players track in combat.  Since Body damage only matters at -2xBOD and never matters otherwise I think this will be the easiest way to simplify combat.  The villains are more about control and psychological damage than murder out right. 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Welcome White Fish! In our games, we don’t worry about BODY done by Normal Damage. We only really use BODY damage for Killing Attacks and if we need to break anything. What I’d suggest is go for it and Don’t use BODY however keep notes and see if you do need to use the stat. Add it back in if you find you need to use it.

[unclevlad]

For the most part, as has been noted, attacks dealing normal damage against supers won't do BODY.  The simplest solution:  don't use killing attacks.  Those CAN do BODY...and because they're so few dice, the odds of an unfortunately high result are too good for comfort.  Alternately, use killing attacks...but cap their size substantially lower.  If you're targeting, say, 10d6/10 DC active points, then perhaps a killing attack maxes at 2d6+1/7 DC.

 

Having attacks do a little BODY to the PCs from time to time isn't a problem;  quite the opposite, IMO.  It can be nicely dramatic.  

[White Fish]

I will start using No Body damage to Characters and see how that works.

6 hours ago, unclevlad said:

For the most part, as has been noted, attacks dealing normal damage against supers won't do BODY.  The simplest solution:  don't use killing attacks.  Those CAN do BODY...and because they're so few dice, the odds of an unfortunately high result are too good for comfort.  Alternately, use killing attacks...but cap their size substantially lower.  If you're targeting, say, 10d6/10 DC active points, then perhaps a killing attack maxes at 2d6+1/7 DC.

 

Having attacks do a little BODY to the PCs from time to time isn't a problem;  quite the opposite, IMO.  It can be nicely dramatic.  

I keep seeing this and type of post and don't understand what you are trying to justify.
 
If BODY damage from normal attacks is usually near 0 why take the time to count it?  This just seems like extra steps for nothing (aka counting damage twice) which is what I want to avoid in the first place. 

I do Plan on having the BODY stat for Transforms and inanimate objects.


 

[unclevlad]

Counting the BODY from a normal attack takes basically no time...and sometimes, hey, who knows.  How many dice was that...how many 6's, how many 1's.  With a little practice, even with 12 dice, you get the BODY at a glance.  It's always the STUN that takes much longer.  (Well, OK, almost  always.  I remember one player who couldn't aggregate worth a darn, and his counts were *painfully* slow.)  Also, some character types DO take some BODY at times...not everyone has great defenses, some might pricipally rely on staying out of the way.  I'd rather have the same rules for PCs and NPCs...the NUMBERS can be different of course, but not the rules.  Blast 8d6 that misses the target and hits a normal...?  Ewwww....gonna be a NASTY injury.

 

A fair bit of this is, I used to play with rules munchkins who WOULD twist things like this around, and this would be a path to do that.  (Like, STUN-only damage negation or damage reduction.)